Sublimox price

[polymath]

i have both an expensive one and a cheap one, use both off same leisure battery at the same time to do two hives at once. Difference is the expensive heats up more quickly, so if i had just a couple of hives cheap one is fine. What i do is put on the cheap one first then the exspensive one, the extra time it takes me means two minutes later i can turn off the expensive one then the cheap one and move to the next set of hives. Mind you i got the expensive one cheap at auction.

 

[Martimart]

i have both an expensive one and a cheap one, use both off same leisure battery at the same time to do two hives at once. Difference is the expensive heats up more quickly, so if i had just a couple of hives cheap one is fine. What i do is put on the cheap one first then the exspensive one, the extra time it takes me means two minutes later i can turn off the expensive one then the cheap one and move to the next set of hives. Mind you i got the expensive one cheap at auction.

So was the cheap one more expensive than the expensive one?

 

[ericbeaumont]

So was the cheap one more expensive than the expensive one?

And is your time cheap or expensive?

 

[pargyle]

Yes - that was a slightly tongue in cheek remark. The formic acid produced by oxalic acid thermolysis will of course be hot when it leaves the vaporiser but it won't increase the temperature of the hive significantly. For a short while there could be quite a bit of it though compared to the vapours from MAQs strips especially in proximity to the vaporiser.

Although the likelihood of any non-pressure sublimator producing formic acid is remote ... look at the conditions to produce formic acid from OA - just won't happen.

 

[Repwoc]

Although the likelihood of any non-pressure sublimator producing formic acid is remote ... look at the conditions to produce formic acid from OA - just won't happen.

Can't actually find much other than what it says in the Rubber Book referenced by Randy Oliver which says decomposition of OA to HCOOH and CO2 starts at 189 °C. What's pressure got to do with it?

 

[Arfermo]

I don't get it though what's so special about the sublimox? There's loads of evaporators on EBay and Amazon for £50 to £100, even Abelo do one in that price range, as far as I can see they all do the same thing, use electricity to heat up oxalic acid crystals which then vaporise up into the hive. I can't for the life of me see how this one can be so special that it's 3 or more times the price. Especially when Abelo sell the heating element on it's own for only £35 and that must be the heart of the machine / system.

Depaends on how many hives you have/wish to treat. Simple.

 

[Martimart]

And is your time cheap or expensive?

I guess after the time I spent reading your drivel my time is cheap.

 

[CaptainCymru]

I guess after the time I spent reading your drivel my time is cheap.

Classic British put down

 

[elainemary]

It never ceases to amaze my husband, and increasingly me, how much can be justified for this hobby
You'll find a way

How much is a pair of golf clubs, all the gear and an annual membership fee? Far more fun and mind enhancing, keeping bees

 

[Amari]

It never ceases to amaze my husband, and increasingly me, how much can be justified for this hobby
You'll find a way

It's the only hobby I know which reliably makes a profit (assuming you sell your honey).

 

[pargyle]

Can't actually find much other than what it says in the Rubber Book referenced by Randy Oliver which says decomposition of OA to HCOOH and CO2 starts at 189 °C. What's pressure got to do with it?

How does oxalic vaporization work? In the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics we find that upon heating oxalic acid, the water of hydration boils off first, then at 315°F the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372°F any oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to initially to formic acid and carbon dioxide, and then to CO2, carbon monoxide, and water).

The reality is that formic acid will only form during a restricted temperature band .. below this sublimation occurs and under nornal beekeeping procedures by the point that formic acid wil be created there is no OA left to turn into formic acid .. if there is any left the rising temperature stops the creation of formic and CO2 and H2O are the products of heating. In the laboratory controlled temperature conditions under pressure are used for the creation of formic acid but the more regular method is via distillation ... formic acid is not easy to make by accident.

In beekeeping terms and by non-pressure sublimation - it's a non-event.

If you must know here's how you do it ...

 

[Repwoc]

How does oxalic vaporization work? In the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics we find that upon heating oxalic acid, the water of hydration boils off first, then at 315°F the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372°F any oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to initially to formic acid and carbon dioxide, and then to CO2, carbon monoxide, and water).

The reality is that formic acid will only form during a restricted temperature band .. below this sublimation occurs and under nornal beekeeping procedures by the point that formic acid wil be created there is no OA left to turn into formic acid .. if there is any left the rising temperature stops the creation of formic and CO2 and H2O are the products of heating. In the laboratory controlled temperature conditions under pressure are used for the creation of formic acid but the more regular method is via distillation ... formic acid is not easy to make by accident.

In beekeeping terms and by non-pressure sublimation - it's a non-event.

If you must know here's how you do it ...

Oxalic acid vapour is still oxalic acid and will undergo the same decomposition reaction once it's temperature is high enough.

The reaction in the video is done in the presence of glycerol which catalyses the reaction - ie it lowers the activation energy needed leading to reaction at lower temperature. The product HCOOH becomes mixed with the glycerol and is isolated from it by distillation. That's got nothing at all to do with OA vaporisation in the absence of glycerol.

If the temperature of the oxalic acid vapour reaches the decomposition temperature, it will decompose to HCOOH and CO2. I don't care what Randy Oliver says (and which you quoted) about "any oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed", that is complete tosh. Chemical reactions are about the breaking and forming of chemical bonds and the physical state of the OA will have no bearing whatsoever on that.

The final CO and H2O are formed by the decomposition of the initially formed HCOOH at even higher temperature, ie the oxallic decomposes to HCOOH and CO2, the HCOOH will then decompose to to CO and H2O at higher temperatures.

Practically, though, the vaporised OA will escape quickly from the evaporator, cool and condense back to crystalline solid so there's not much time for it to reach the higher temperatures required for thermolysis. HCOOH formation would only be a problem if the temperature of the evaporator was sufficient to heat the OA above 190 °C before it escapes. I think this is possible with the Gas Vap, but probably not with the open-pan type cheap electrical evaporators.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Oxalic acid vapour is still oxalic acid and will undergo the same decomposition reaction once it's temperature is high enough.

The reaction in the video is done in the presence of glycerol which catalyses the reaction - ie it lowers the activation energy needed leading to reaction at lower temperature. The product HCOOH becomes mixed with the glycerol and is isolated from it by distillation. That's got nothing at all to do with OA vaporisation in the absence of glycerol.

If the temperature of the oxalic acid vapour reaches the decomposition temperature, it will decompose to HCOOH and CO2. I don't care what Randy Oliver says (and which you quoted) about "any oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed", that is complete tosh. Chemical reactions are about the breaking and forming of chemical bonds and the physical state of the OA will have no bearing whatsoever on that.

The final CO and H2O are formed by the decomposition of the initially formed HCOOH at even higher temperature, ie the oxallic decomposes to HCOOH and CO2, the HCOOH will then decompose to to CO and H2O at higher temperatures.

Practically, though, the vaporised OA will escape quickly from the evaporator, cool and condense back to crystalline solid so there's not much time for it to reach the higher temperatures required for thermolysis. HCOOH formation would only be a problem if the temperature of the evaporator was sufficient to heat the OA above 190 °C before it escapes. I think this is possible with the Gas Vap, but probably not with the open-pan type cheap electrical evaporators.

Very little of the vapour/recondensed powder will have remained close to the source of heat in the gas vap which I use as evidence d by the visual plume jetting out of the discharge tube. If there is any final residual oa to decompose to formic acid it's not going to be significant or create a problem for the bees. Much of this thread is theoretical chemistry but in the real world at atmospheric pressure it's not something to fret about.

 

[Repwoc]

Very little of the vapour/recondensed powder will have remained close to the source of heat in the gas vap which I use as evidence d by the visual plume jetting out of the discharge tube. If there is any final residual oa to decompose to formic acid it's not going to be significant or create a problem for the bees. Much of this thread is theoretical chemistry but in the real world at atmospheric pressure it's not something to fret about.

I think that is likely true. The white plume is the condensing OA, possibly with a little condensing water vapour. Compared with an open pan though the Gas Vap has more of an enclosed chamber heated by a powerful heat source so the temperature inside is potentially much higher than the OA sublimation temperature, which is why I mentioned it as a possibility.

 

[Ian123]

Check out the video for the flip top....nothing like a gadget
https://en.swienty.com/pi/Sublimox-Flip-top-add-on-kit_9925904_164663.aspx

 

[Erichalfbee]

Check out the video for the flip top....nothing like a gadget
https://en.swienty.com/pi/Sublimox-Flip-top-add-on-kit_9925904_164663.aspx

Aaaaarghhh!!!!! why is it so expensive..... I want one

 

[Ian123]

Aaaaarghhh!!!!! why is it so expensive..... I want one

Funny enough that’s exactly what I thought

 

[pargyle]

Aaaaarghhh!!!!! why is it so expensive..... I want one

It's ridiculously expensive .... the basic sublimox isn't cheap but with the add on it is ludicrous ...

 

[pargyle]

I think that is likely true. The white plume is the condensing OA, possibly with a little condensing water vapour. Compared with an open pan though the Gas Vap has more of an enclosed chamber heated by a powerful heat source so the temperature inside is potentially much higher than the OA sublimation temperature, which is why I mentioned it as a possibility.

The gasvap is very quick to sublimate though and once you have got the hang of controlling the temperature by reducing the flame on the torch it is a constant, quick, stream and then over and done with. I accept what you say about the potential creation of formic acid but ... in practical terms and with the relatively small amount of OA used at each application the reality is that the risk is minimal to the point where it can be ignored.

 

[gmonag]

I agree. The user just needs to be aware of not overheating the pan before tipping in the OA. I bought one a year ago and find it much quicker, easier and less faff than a varrox-type wand.