Stupid virgin queens

[B+.]

My queens emerge in an incubator, have a numbered opilath plate stuck on their thorax and are then introduced to a mating hive. Consequently, I can keep track of individual queens in a way that I couldn't do if they were just marked with a coloured Posca pen.

The introduction stage is a very risky part of a queens life and it seems crazy to me that a queen would leave her nuc and enter another. Nevertheless, this is exactly what I observed with a recent batch of queens. Number 50 left her nuc and entered a nuc 2 positions further down (they are arranged in a circle with entrances facing in opposite directions). Each nuc is also marked with the queens number so I know which nuc each queen should be in. I saw no sign of queen 51 which should have been in this hive but queen 50 was striding over the face of the comb as though she owned the place. The curious thing is: why would she choose to leave her own nuc and why would the new nuc accept her in preference to their own queen as both emerged at the same time so were both in the same physiological state?
I'd be interested to hear your views/comments, particularly if you have observed anything similar.

 

[bontbee]

Here's my theory, (number 2, ahem). My theory number 2 is that No. 51 was faulty in some way, was despatched by her bees who were then, fortuitously, provided with No. 50 who lost her way in her euphoria after her mating flight...

As you can see, I'm no queen rearer!

 

[B+.]

These were all virgin queens within a couple of days of introduction. They weren't mature enough to mate (5-7 days after emergence). I can accept that 51 was defective in some way which I was unable to detect (they all looked like beautiful queens to me but they may have been able to detect something that humans can't).
I still think she was stupid for leaving her own nuc. They were all 5 frame Langstroths with 2 frames of sealed brood, 1.5 of food and 1 of comb so you would think it was a des-res for a virgin queen. The bees were all young bees too so there shouldn't have been any aggression from field bees to chase her out.

 

[dn170221]

You would think she would know which hive to go in to, what with them having her number written on it and everything!

 

[bontbee]

They weren't mature enough to mate (5-7 days after emergence).

Do queens do orientation flights?

 

[Mrs Shoot]

Had this happen last year Virgin Queen left her poly nuc to do her mating flights. Found her a week later in a wooden hive 3 doors down (which was queenless at the time) Mated and striding around the place.

 

[B+.]

Do queens do orientation flights?

Queens are still developing when they emerge from their cell. This takes between 5 and 7 days, although the average of 6 days is usually quoted. They can then go on their mating flights if the weather is good enough.
In answer to your question; yes. Honeybee queens do perform orientation flights http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/Bee_Culture/BC2010-07.pdf

 

[B+.]

Virgin Queen left her poly nuc to do her mating flights. Found her a week later in a wooden hive 3 doors down (which was queenless at the time) Mated and striding around the place.

Was she marked in some way? Its hard to say that it was that actual queen (which is why I mark mine straight from the cell) rather than any other queen. I have found mated queens in my cell raising colony (and all the cells were torn down) when I didn't put an excluder infront of the entrance. What I mean is that queens returning from their mating flights certainly get lost (or perhaps even guided into a queenless hive)

 

[oliver90owner]

No mention of age when introduced. Iwould think that possibly number 50 was lost (possibly due to a number target stuck on her thorax as a target for local birds!) and number 51 felt that the other hive entrance (more southerly?) offered a better alternative accommodation. OR 51 simply got lost and booted out number 50?

Likely a simple explanation. Seven days after emergence is certainly in the mating window. 5 days could easily be 4 1/2 and you are only quoting the 'normal' range. The actual range for mating is likely from about 4 days up to seven weeks but, as you say, weather dependent.

Emerging 12 hours earlier is a long time when only considering 144 hours, so would need more precise timings to make any realitic guess, I would think. Try coloured mating nucs to lessen the risk? And finally, 'one swallow does not make a summer' comes to mind and this phenomenon is not a regular occurrence - in fact seems to be a relatively isolated event.

 

[B+.]

No mention of age when introduced. Iwould think that possibly number 50 was lost (possibly due to a number target stuck on her thorax as a target for local birds!) and number 51 felt that the other hive entrance (more southerly?) offered a better alternative accommodation. OR 51 simply got lost and booted out number 50?

Likely a simple explanation. Seven days after emergence is certainly in the mating window. 5 days could easily be 4 1/2 and you are only quoting the 'normal' range. The actual range for mating is likely from about 4 days up to seven weeks but, as you say, weather dependent.

Emerging 12 hours earlier is a long time when only considering 144 hours, so would need more precise timings to make any realitic guess, I would think. Try coloured mating nucs to lessen the risk? And finally, 'one swallow does not make a summer' comes to mind and this phenomenon is not a regular occurrence - in fact seems to be a relatively isolated event.

I thought I had considered everything but you have certainly given me a few things to think about.
My queens emerge in Nicot cages inside an incubator and are checked several times per day. They are marked immediately after emergence and returned to the incubator until I can take them to the apiary. If they have emerged during the night, they could be as much as 8 hours old when they are marked but are usually much less.
They are taken to the apiary the same day and introduced to 5 frame Langstroth mating nucs (I open mate some queens for use as drone producers and production hives). I have relied on position and orientation rather than colour so, I suppose, painting them different colours might help mating queens orient to the correct nuc.
I would have thought these queens were still too young to mate as the figures I have seen range between 5 and 7 days post emergence for mating flights (of course, africanised queens are an exception but we don't have those here). I guess there are always outliers outside the normal range so it is always possible.

 

[Goran]

My mentor had once a case that mated queen added to a colony, after check she was accepted. Right to it was queen breeder colony ( cloake board - down old queen, up qcells). When he opened to harvest qcells, they were torn and that mated queen which was added to colony next to breeder colony was in that upper box where qcells were..
Also he mention that not strange some queen from mating flight accidentally go into breeder and make a mess..
That is one of the reasons I like to grow queen away from swarm season..

 

[B+.]

These were all virgin queens within a couple of days of introduction. They weren't mature enough to mate

I think most people are missing the point that these were only about two days after emergence.

 

[snelgrove]

I have a virgin which emerged last Wednesday and observed her today on a flight, that's 6 days after emergence. not sure if it was an orientation flight or mating flight, but she looked alot bigger than when she emerged.

 

[For want of a better word]

I do not mark virgin queens.... perhaps another myth that should be recorded in the Great Book of Bee Myths?

Grandad said marking them before mating was making them a better target for Jo Crow!

All this may be a clue as to why I have found two queens in some colonies... one marked ( original) and one unmarked ( lost virgin/non virgin!)... when I have been carefully monitoring for queen cells or swarming preparations.... within the isolated Amm mating apiary???... three out of eight apideas were without queens this morning!

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

I do not mark virgin queens.... perhaps another myth that should be recorded in the Great Book of Bee Myths?

There are a couple of reasons to mark virgins that I can think of:
1. So you know which breeding line they come from.
I produce a number of open mated queens each year which I use as production colonies and drone producers. The number helps me keep track of which mother the queens came from so I can avoid inbreeding.
2. A mated queen returning from her mating flight can end up in the wrong hive. Unless she was marked as a virgin you wouldn't know it was a different queen.

So long as you are careful about where you put the opilath plate (and don't get glue on her wings) there is no reason why she shouldn't fly as well as an unmarked queen. I don't believe having an opilath plate on her thorax makes her more visible than any other queen in flight. In any case, its worth the risk to me so that I can have certainty over the queens identity

 

[Thymallus]

I'd be interested to hear your views/comments, particularly if you have observed anything similar.

Not quite the same, in fact the opposite. One of my rows of apideas had a mated queen with failures left and right (lost on mating flights or whatever), the bees from the queenless apideas are all currently trying to cram into the apidea with the mated queen. Not sure what to do at this point as they can't all get in...

 

[B+.]

Not sure what to do at this point as they can't all get in...

If you have any more cells, you might tempt them back but an emerged queen is a higher value asset than a cell and a mated queen is higher value than a virgin. Could you move them or add more comb space?

 

[Thymallus]

Good point, I'd forgotten you can remove the feeder compartment and replace with an extra couple of frames. We shall see if that improves the congestion. Thanks.
Otherwise I think we shall have to try a one frame poly nuc as nothing intermediate to move them into,

Alas no more queen cells ready to add/move into the others until the weekend. Guess I'll just have to go shake some more bees out.

 

[For want of a better word]

There are a couple of reasons to mark virgins that I can think of:
1. So you know which breeding line they come from.
I produce a number of open mated queens each year which I use as production colonies and drone producers. The number helps me keep track of which mother the queens came from so I can avoid inbreeding.
2. A mated queen returning from her mating flight can end up in the wrong hive. Unless she was marked as a virgin you wouldn't know it was a different queen.

So long as you are careful about where you put the opilath plate (and don't get glue on her wings) there is no reason why she shouldn't fly as well as an unmarked queen. I don't believe having an opilath plate on her thorax makes her more visible than any other queen in flight. In any case, its worth the risk to me so that I can have certainty over the queens identity

Thank you B+
I will try this with the next batch of Amm
Last batch were from same queen mother utilising a Hopkins board, mainly I must admit, because I could not find the queen!!!

For my sins should I sit on the naughty step outside the pub tonight and do penance by drinking larger or worse... French Cidre?

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

remove the feeder compartment and replace with an extra couple of frames..

If that isn't enough, theres a supplementary box which adds another 5 frames if you need it http://www.bienenzuchtbedarf-seip.d...r/Begattungskaestchen---EWKs/Brutaufsatz.html