Starvation

[irishguy]

Checked my hives this morning temperature 11 degrees C ,One hive that had plenty of stores a fortnight ago is now much lighter and will need more feeding not sure whether to give it fondant or more syrup considering the temperature. The bees were flying but didn't seem to be bringing in much.

Is there a cut off temp point that one stops feeding SS then goes onto fondant?

 

[irishguy]

2012-13 : 30% colony losses nationwide.

Losses were due to extremely poor foraging throughout 2012, followed by a warm autumn, warm winter and warm early spring - by which time stores in many colonies were exhausted. This extended period of warmth was followed by a very sudden cold spell, just as the bees had started brooding-up - and that was enough to take substantial numbers of colonies out of the game by starvation.

Had the weather remained cold over the winter, then the reduced quantities of stores might possibly have been preserved.

Many beekeepers were caught out by this scenario of extended warmth followed by sudden cold.

LJ

This relates to the previous winter, but goes into much greater depth about winter brood-rearing/ food consumption etc.
http://www.-------------/files/library/spring_feeding_for_web_18_may_1337335404.pdf

missing bit is: b-b-k-a.org.uk (delete the hyphens) - hope this doesn't cause any offence anywhere ...

Yes I understand but with insulation you'd have a better consistent temp rather than a sharp rise and fall in temps would ya not

 

[peteinwilts]

I dont believe bees are so daft as to go out for a fly around without any real purpose. If they are flying, they have a reason. You may not work out what they are collecting or what they are doing, but they do have good reason.

When the sun peeps out, mine are out in numbers, and a lot of pollen coming in.
They don't miss a opportunity to get jobs done.

 

[Little John]

Yes I understand but with insulation you'd have a better consistent temp rather than a sharp rise and fall in temps would ya not

You misunderstand me. I'm saying why spend time/effort/brain power on the 'insulation issue', when there are far more pressing issues that need 'fixing' ?

Like - what methods could be used to keep the girls constantly cold (and yet allow for periodic clearance flights - maybe ?), rather than allow them to be subjected to unseasonably warm weather which eats away at their stores, with the attendant risk of starvation ?

Years ago people used to keep their beehives in cellars to achieve this. In North America, commercial beekeepers currently keep thousands of hives in temperature-controlled sheds to achieve this.

Are there any other methods which could be used ? I'm talking about focussing on priorities - and I really don't see insulation as being one of them.

LJ

 

[itma]

You misunderstand me. I'm saying why spend time/effort/brain power on the 'insulation issue', when there are far more pressing issues that need 'fixing' ?

Like - what methods could be used to keep the girls constantly cold (and yet allow for periodic clearance flights - maybe ?), rather than allow them to be subjected to unseasonably warm weather which eats away at their stores, with the attendant risk of starvation ?

Years ago people used to keep their beehives in cellars to achieve this. In North America, commercial beekeepers currently keep thousands of hives in temperature-controlled sheds to achieve this.

…

No, you've been misled by misunderstanding the way in which that graph with the minimum consumption at about +5 was obtained. (It wasn't in a beehive!)
Derek's lecture should make things clearer for you. Though he may be along in a while with a link to one of the many posts in which he has dealt with this fallacy.


And in North America, some bees do overwinter in 'sheds' HEATED to a mere MINUS 5C or thereabouts, rather than leaving them outside in MINUS 30C or so.
No, I don't think anyone overwinters "thousands of hives" in artificially COOLED environments. And I believe I know why they don't.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Ian Steppler among others in Canada over winters around 900 hives in a temperature and humidity controlled shed, about 5c i believe.

Click on winter shed gallery on the right of his website.

http://www.stepplerfarms.com/StepplerHoney.html

 

[itma]

Ian Steppler among others in Canada over winters around 900 hives in a temperature and humidity controlled shed, about 5c i believe.

Click on winter shed gallery on the right of his website.

http://www.stepplerfarms.com/StepplerHoney.html

Yes, as I said, indoors for WARMTH.
Because it is damn cold in winter in Miami, Manitoba.
However, nobody in Miami, Florida puts their thousands of hives in a chiller cabinet because their winter is too warm …

The incorrect statement that I was addressing was

… what methods could be used to keep the girls constantly cold (and yet allow for periodic clearance flights - maybe ?), rather than allow them to be subjected to unseasonably warm weather … In North America, commercial beekeepers currently keep thousands of hives in temperature-controlled sheds to achieve this.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

However, nobody in Miami, Florida puts their thousands of hives in a chiller cabinet because their winter is too warm …

Probably because either the poor b*ggers have been moved on to other crops or are in overwintering basements (read something about in the beekeepers lament

 

[user 6228]

Ian Steppler among others in Canada over winters around 900 hives in a temperature and humidity controlled shed, about 5c i believe.

Click on winter shed gallery on the right of his website.

http://www.stepplerfarms.com/Steppl... health implications, then store them at 5c.

 

[Little John]

Fcuk me, the pedantry on this site can get tiresome sometimes - try "In North America, commercial beekeepers currently keep thousands of hives in temperature-controlled sheds in order to to achieve over-wintering at constant low temperatures".

Is that any better ?

Why is that people need to dissect and nitpick, instead of accepting the general spirit of a post ? This is just a chat forum, we're not presenting papers for publication, where there's a need to be word-perfect ...

 

[user 6228]

No, you've been misled by misunderstanding the way in which that graph with the minimum consumption at about +5 was obtained. (It wasn't in a beehive!)
Derek's lecture should make things clearer for you. Though he may be along in a while with a link to one of the many posts in which he has dealt with this fallacy.


And in North America, some bees do overwinter in 'sheds' HEATED to a mere MINUS 5C or thereabouts, rather than leaving them outside in MINUS 30C or so.
No, I don't think anyone overwinters "thousands of hives" in artificially COOLED environments. And I believe I know why they don't.

Alas even in Canada they get days above 5 c so then they do chill the bees to 5c and so their shed require chiller units

 

[Itchy]

Fcuk me, the pedantry on this site can get tiresome sometimes - try "In North America, commercial beekeepers currently keep thousands of hives in temperature-controlled sheds in order to to achieve over-wintering at constant low temperatures".

Is that any better ?

Why is that people need to dissect and nitpick, instead of accepting the general spirit of a post ? This is just a chat forum, we're not presenting papers for publication, where there's a need to be word-perfect?

Nice to have clarity though, otherwise you get the wrong end of the stick.

 

[MikeT]

I worked in Northern Russia some years ago. I saw numerous hives dotted about the country side during the summer. These disappeared in the winter and I eventually discovered the beekeepers move then to the basement of their datchas were they stayed form Late October to Mid April, stored with the potatoes, apples and other produce,

The temperature dropped to in excess of -30oC and was usually -20oC in Dec, Jan & Feb

 

[itma]

Alas even in Canada they get days above 5 c so then they do chill the bees to 5c and so their shed require chiller units

News to me, Derek, but I suppose it does make sense that if you were putting them in the shed for protection from the worst of the Winter, you'd be quite keen to prevent them all coming out for a look-round when/if there was a gap in the freezing weather, and you could then keep them (mostly) in their hives by cooling when needed.




However, I don't think that alters the basic wrong-headedness of the concept of *deliberately* cooling UK bees in the misguided belief that this would reduce their Autumn stores consumption.

I'm saying why spend time/effort/brain power on the 'insulation issue', when there are far more pressing issues that need 'fixing' ?

Like - what methods could be used to keep the girls constantly cold (and yet allow for periodic clearance flights - maybe ?), rather than allow them to be subjected to unseasonably warm weather which eats away at their stores, with the attendant risk of starvation ?

 

[Dishmop]

I think its not so much that bees will be out and about just because its warm,,its more likely to be because the sun is shining......hence why they will come out when there is snow on the ground.

 

[user 6228]

News to me, Derek, but I suppose it does make sense that if you were putting them in the shed for protection from the worst of the Winter, you'd be quite keen to prevent them all coming out for a look-round when/if there was a gap in the freezing weather, and you could then keep them (mostly) in their hives by cooling when needed.




However, I don't think that alters the basic wrong-headedness of the concept of *deliberately* cooling UK bees in the misguided belief that this would reduce their Autumn stores consumption.

Alter? It amplifies it. Cooling bees increases probability of . nosema and chalkbrood. Plus other varroa factors.
You are correct my quibble is you do not assert your argument with sufficient vehemence

 

[REDWOOD]

The first beekeeping book I read was from the US and was over a hundred years old and the author explained how he moved his hive into the cellar for winter and used newspapers rubbed with wax as foundation. How thing have moved forward

 

[StephenM]

2 winters ago I lost 2 of my hives to starvation even though there proved to be loads of honey in the brood nest and fondant in supers above. Problem appeared to be that it was all too far away for them in the severe cold.
Saddest thing is to discover dead bees with their heads stuck right down into empty cells looking for food when it is only inches away.

 

[user 6228]

I pose a challenge - Can some one point out where someone has proved clustering is necessary to honeybee colony survival. I mean necessary in the way that some seed will not germinate unless they have a period of cold.
Must a honeybee colony die if it has not clustered?
THat will mean someone has kept the honeybees nest above 20C all year and it proved fatal in statistically significant numbers?

 

[itma]

I pose a challenge - Can some one point out where someone has proved clustering is necessary to honeybee colony survival. I mean necessary in the way that some seed will not germinate unless they have a period of cold.
Must a honeybee colony die if it has not clustered?
THat will mean someone has kept the honeybees nest above 20C all year and it proved fatal in statistically significant numbers?

Derek, there are beekeepers on here from Southern Spain who should be able to answer your question … and confirm that clustering is a response to low temperature, and not a necessity.