Starting a new Bee Association BBKA advice please

[For want of a better word]

Another Let the buyer beware case?... are Trading Standards looking into it?

Yeghes da

 

[pargyle]

Before you dismiss as rubbish and misinformation I suggest you ring your home insurance companies and ask them. Get some informed opinion rather than list misinformation. No-one will, but if anyone does it would be good if they could let us know what they say.
Currently you seem to be armchair refereeing over matters you have no knowledge about.
We had to change out insurance to business class because we run a business. If you are only selling honey from home then it appears that you are classed (by insurance companies) as running a business.
As it turned out the original posters problem was solved by them agreeing (Saga Insurance)to add that he was a beekeeper selling small amounts of Honey and no increase in premium.
This was not a wind up.
The telegraph came to his house to take photographs and was supposed to run an article about it last Saturday. I couldn't find anything on the online edition. Perhaps someone saw it?


The link to the original posts is here
You will need to log in as a member of the BBKA

"UPDATE

Saga have reconsidered their original decision taking the view that as a small scale hobby beekeeper, it was unreasonable to require a significant additional premium for 'business' cover. I am relieved at their common sense and willingness to discuss and tailor insurance to meet our needs. We now have exactly the same insurnace cover for buildings and contents but with the small additional note stating that the insured property is "used in connection with your Honey Producer business and you receive an average of 2 visitors per week". The insurance premium has not been increased.

Despite 'opening a can of worms' etc, I hope that my case may be quoted by others who find themselves in the same position. Clearly at least one major insurance provider is willing to apply common sense and I applaud them for listening and personalising our cover rather than blindly applying inappropriate rules. Please note I have no association or interest in Saga other than as a customer. "


I don't think so ... there is a world of difference between running a business and selling a few jars of honey that is surplus to your own requirements. Similarly, selling items on ebay that are surplus to requirements is not a business ... As I said originally - Insurance companies will always hide behind the small print given the option but the courts take a view based on what is fair and reasonable.

 

[Thymallus]

As I said originally - Insurance companies will always hide behind the small print given the option but the courts take a view based on what is fair and reasonable.

So you now agree that I'm not scaremongering you with "rubbish" and "misinformation" as you implied earlier?

 

[pargyle]

So you now agree that I'm not scaremongering you with "rubbish" and "misinformation" as you implied earlier?

No ... I don't ...This is what I said originally:

"This has got to be rubbish ... I've crossed swords with a number of insurance companies over the years but they usually crumble when the argument put to them is fair and reasonable. Any court in the land will apply the 'fair and reasonable' test to any transaction brought before them. If you are a hobby beekeeper, selling a few jars of honey when there is a surplus, it does not constitute a 'business' IMO - we've had THAT discussion a few times in the past. However, if you have a large number of hives and use part of your home in order to run 'a business' then you should declare it as such - a domestic home insurance policy is just that .. a policy covering 'business premises' is a different kettle of fish."

What HM said:

"Sorry to hear your house has burnt down, we will not be paying out on your insurance as we found out that you sold a jar of honey last month, and never told us about it."

What You said in response:

"Yup, you got it! You are running a business from home and have insured it as private dwelling. "

Now... if that's not scaremongering I don't know what is ?

Let's get real ... there is a difference between Hobby beekeepers selling a few jars and people who seek to make a living from it - or at least secure an incremental income. The test is probably at the point where you feel that it is necessary to register as a business and produce annual accounts - either as a sole trader, partnership or limited company. At that point I would suggest you are running a business and as I said originally, would invalidate your house insurance if you didn't declare it as such to your insurers.

 

[alldigging]

If it's a hobby as far as the tax man is concerned then I'm not sure that the insurance companies can say it's a business.

If two extra visitors a week to your door counts as a business then we need to barricade the gates everywhere from leaflet delivery people and cold callers.

 

[Thymallus]

Let's get real ... there is a difference between Hobby beekeepers selling a few jars and people who seek to make a living from it - or at least secure an incremental income.

Apparently not in the eyes of the insurance companies.
I doubt many would want to jeopardize any future house insurance claims based on insurance advice from an unqualified forum member.

Have you rung yours to check you are still covered if you sell a few jars of honey from home? It will take you less time than typing your response?
and what they say would be accurate information and interesting to hear.
It may only be saga that requires you to register selling honey as a hobby on your insurance details.
In my opinion it is always wiser to check.

 

[Thymallus]

If it's a hobby as far as the tax man is concerned then I'm not sure that the insurance companies can say it's a business.

If two extra visitors a week to your door counts as a business then we need to barricade the gates everywhere from leaflet delivery people and cold callers.

Would it not be wiser to check with your insurance company?

 

[pargyle]

Apparently not in the eyes of the insurance companies.
I doubt many would want to jeopardize any future house insurance claims based on insurance advice from an unqualified forum member.

Have you rung yours to check you are still covered if you sell a few jars of honey from home? It will take you less time than typing your response?
and what they say would be accurate information and interesting to hear.
It may only be saga that requires you to register selling honey as a hobby on your insurance details.
In my opinion it is always wiser to check.

I don't sell anything from my home .. I do sell a few spare eggs, a few jars of honey and an occasional woodturning commission but I don't have people coming to the door and seeking to buy things, I drop them off to work colleagues and a few people who know ... I don't consider anything I do as a business ... just a contribution to some expensive hobbies. I've looked at the small print in my household buildings and contents policy and I can't see anything that actually excludes such activities ...

Do Saga really want 'Hobbies' declared on their proposal form ? .. Whilst it took me about an hour to fill in the on line form last time I changed my household policy there was nothing on there relating to hobbies ? They are more interested in whether you have tenants, the house is occupied and not in a flood zone as far as I can see ... If it's not included in the proposal form and you are not 'running a business' then I can't see any reason to raise the hare ... Answer the questions on the proposal truthfully - YES - vital if you come to make a claim - but if the the question is not asked and the insurer tries to avoid paying out on an issue they omitted to cover then that's what the Courts are for.

It's just common sense ...

 

[Thymallus]

. I don't consider anything I do as a business ...

It's not your considerations we are interested in.
Its what the insurance companies consider as a business.

 

[Thymallus]

People might find the following article of interest.
Selling honey in my front gate will add £350 to my insurance.

 

[Erichalfbee]

It's just common sense ...

I think you have it there pargyle.
The previous link http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ont-garden-will-add-4000-to-my-insurance.html

which describes how hobby beekeepers were stung (ho ho ...but no pun intended) with a large extra premium for selling their honey from home, goes on to say

Saga agreed to drop the premium increase when Telegraph Money questioned the decision, mysteriously declaring it was the result of “human error”. It has now issued guidance to its underwriters on how to define a “small business”.
Saga’s Paul Green, who is also a beekeeper, said: “You don’t need to have business cover for having a few people coming to the garden gate and buying some pots of honey or selling it to friends and family.
“Underwriting is as much an art as a science – with judgment being used as well as the cold fact of someone saying they were now operating a small business.”

 

[alldigging]

and not in a flood zone as far as I can see ...

They wanted to know if we were within 100m of any canal, river or stream. We are. But TBH the only way the Rochdale canal will flood here is it the whole of Manchester is about 100ft under weather.
I am not sure how nice Oldham-sur-mare will be though.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think you have it there pargyle.
The previous link http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ont-garden-will-add-4000-to-my-insurance.html

which describes how hobby beekeepers were stung (ho ho ...but no pun intended) with a large extra premium for selling their honey from home, goes on to say

Saga agreed to drop the premium increase when Telegraph Money questioned the decision, mysteriously declaring it was the result of “human error”. It has now issued guidance to its underwriters on how to define a “small business”.
Saga’s Paul Green, who is also a beekeeper, said: “You don’t need to have business cover for having a few people coming to the garden gate and buying some pots of honey or selling it to friends and family.
“Underwriting is as much an art as a science – with judgment being used as well as the cold fact of someone saying they were now operating a small business.”

So selling honey at the front gate did not cost them an extra £350.00 a year?
Just the usual media hype and scaremongering

 

[Thymallus]

So selling honey at the front gate did not cost them an extra £350.00 a year?
Just the usual media hype and scaremongering

Only after the Telegraph got involved. Initially they were quite adamant.
Now Saga has seen common sense, but only after media pressure.
But what about the rest of the insurance companies?

 

[pargyle]

People might find the following article of interest.
Selling honey in my front gate will add £350 to my insurance.

Read the whole article then ...

"Saga agreed to drop the premium increase when Telegraph Money questioned the decision, mysteriously declaring it was the result of “human error”. It has now issued guidance to its underwriters on how to define a “small business”. "


Like I said originally ... Insurers will try it on but I've found in the past, when you challenge stupidity, they inevitably cave in - and if they don't you have plenty of choice in the Insurance market and the Courts if it's about a claim that is being unreasonably witheld.

You keep challenging my veracity to comment on this issue and yet, bit by bit, everything I said in those first couple of posts is being confirmed.

I'll say it again... if you are not running a 'business' from home you really don't have a problem. Even Saga, who seem to have started the saga in the first place appear to be saying that as well .... !!

 

[pargyle]

They wanted to know if we were within 100m of any canal, river or stream. We are. But TBH the only way the Rochdale canal will flood here is it the whole of Manchester is about 100ft under weather.
I am not sure how nice Oldham-sur-mare will be though.

Yes ... I've been through that particular hoop in the past ... and a number of others both on a personal and business basis. The problem these days is that much of the insurance risk is not handled by people who had judgement but computers which zone risk - and it requires a high degree of software sophistication just to cover the standard variables - if you fall on the borderline of another 'zone', be it geographic, demographic or another classification then you risk getting caught by a computer making a 'logical' decision and your premium gets bumped up. My experience has been that, in this instance, you insist on talking to a human being - and not the bottom rung ... go for the top of the ladder. I've saved thousands of pounds over the years simply by not accepting the first thing an Insurer tells you - on any level.

 

[Thymallus]

Read the whole article then ...

You should take the time to read the posts on this thread, particularly number 39 and also 57 where the outcome of this saga was already posted, which we had known for several days. Also surprised you haven't spotted the glaring error in the article either.

Catch up man!!..... You seem to be acting as though you have only just discovered the outcome from the article I kindly posted a link to!

The point is that only when the Telegraph money team stepped in did saga change their stance.

Or do we assume that everyone in the insurance industry is nice and reasonable and applies common sense to their policies (as you would have us believe). OR do they behave as Saga did and look for any loophole to increase the premium until some bad publicity was about to descent on them.

 

[oliver90owner]

Canals close by! Ha!

Once asked if I had ever been tested for the AIDS virus.

I messed up their system. I ticked the "Yes" box. In the notes I typed "As a blood donor my blood is tested, as routine, about every 6 months whenever I give another blood donation!"

The policy was accepted without query, so I suspect they realised the stupidity of the question and may have changed the wording at some point.

 

[peteinwilts]

so selling a 'few' jars at the gate does not mean you are a business. How many is a 'few'? 2, 5, 10, 50, 1000? The insurance company's do not differentiate, neither does the taxman.

The BFA is clear on its meaning. It is for business's.

If the BBKA's self acclaimed 'voice of the beekeeper' had any worth, they would clear this up on a national and legal level.
Instead they leave it to the individual to make up their own rules (i.e. what constitutes as a few), and therefore leaving the beekeeper out to dry.
If cleared up and set in stone, this would probably upset and alienate a large number of members, so it is far easier to keep their heads in the sand and keep the peace, regardless of whether it is the 'right' thing to do.

The taxman reported about a year ago that it was looking into ebayers, and are focusing on people that sell regularly as it is considered extra income.

Selling jars at the gate regularly IS extra income.
In the professional beekeepers eyes (those that pay tax!), this creates an uneven playing field as jars are sold at a discounted price as tax for the income is not taken into account.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

They wanted to know if we were within 100m of any canal, river or stream. We are. But TBH the only way the Rochdale canal will flood here is it the whole of Manchester is about 100ft under weather.
I am not sure how nice Oldham-sur-mare will be though.

same thing happens here - the house is but fifty feet from an area designated a serious risk floodplain, but we are of no risk whatsoever being some sixty feet or so above a 500 year flood level - gets them scratching their heads though