Spring Stimulation.

[Skyhook]

All this talk of feeding in the spring--- I've always been led to understand that if you feed in the spring then you encourage the numbers to build up TOO EARLY. Which is fine if they are going on to the OSR which is an early crop- so you need the numbers' or if you are going to rear new queens in the colony- you need the numbers.
BUT--- by encouraging early build up, the bees are happy in April- May when there's nectar coming in, come June when there's a natural break in nectar producing flowers the bees will be almost guaranteed to swarm.
This is fine if you want to deal with, or have the equipment to split every hive but if not don't feed them in the spring ,unless of course they have run out of stores.
If you need to feed bees in the spring it means you didn't feed enough last autumn.
I stand to be corrected though!

Your'e both right and wrong depending on your definition of too early. My plans are to get a crop off OSR, then go for increase. So for me, it's just the ticket. For others with different plans it may be too early.

 

[oliver90owner]

bignikki,

encourage the numbers to build up TOO EARLY

Too true in some cases. I happen to want the OSR crop and if the bees are still building up numbers of foragers when the OSR starts to bloom, it is often just too late for a decent crop.

or if you are going to rear new queens

You still do not need them so early unless you are trying 'to beat the local drones' for the matings. Notoriously dodgy for good mating weather and not much gain unless you are a large producer of early queens. The other main reason is for splits for nucs for early-ish sale.

come June when there's a natural break

By then they are on beans, or even spring OSR if there is any available locally.

If you need to feed bees in the spring it means you didn't feed enough last autumn.
Shot yourself in the foot there! IF you are one of those mentioned in para 1, then obviously that will be why one feeds (well 'stimulates'), but I am only partly inclined to agree for the rest - that it meant not enough left as stores in the autumn. It could also be an exceptional winter, too, thus needing emergency feeding, or a very poor spring (sudden cold period after a warm spell).

There are so many variables within a topic such as this that hard and fast rules just cannot apply.

Yes, strong colonies can tend to swarm if conditions are favourable. Part of beekeeping is either to minimise that urge to reproduce or to take appropriate action to avoid a) loss of crop or b) nuisance to neighbours. You really do need a colony of the size that may potentially swarm, to have that surplus of foragers for nectar collection and therefore a good crop. But again, it can depend on other factors.

There are those, who simply want a few jars of honey at the end of the season, and keep bees to be 'environmentally green'. So a whole range from the 'weak' colony overwinterers , through the 'take it as it comes' to the 'early and strong' colony keepers.

Your mistake was only that of 'tarring all with the same brush'. Too many variables in beekeeping to do that.

Regards, RAB

 

[Poly Hive]

When I wrote the piece I was (possibly mistaken) in thinking that most on here were interested in for lack of a better word, proper beekeeping.

By which I mean wanting to work the bees to prove what they and you the beekeeper can achieve.

If you have no interest in a good crop of honey or in making increase or in fact challenging yourself and your bees to come good, then please ignore most if not all of what I post.

Makes it easier: certainly for me.

PH

 

[drstitson]

mine are being stimulated for two/three reasons:

1. nasty UK colony will be requeened asap this year before i can move it to a more domestic site - it will be acting as cell builder/raiser for both themselves and spares for nucs for myself and the local association. hence need for rapid early build up.

2. i want my others to be able to take advantage of cherry blossom and dandelion, the former now being only 5-9 weeks away all in.

3. i also aim to help my neighbour (who has lost 2/3 of colonies) replace his stocks so at least 1 strong colony ready for queen rearing duties will also be desirable.

 

[bignikki]

Sorry Polyhive."proper beekeeping"? Yes i'm in to proper beekeeping myself but I would rather not feed light syrup in the spring to avoid encouraging swarming in June just before the main flow in july.Thats all.
Theres no OSR here or field beans either.
I didn't mean to upset you.
And Oliver90 I wasn't shooting anything!

 

[Poly Hive]

This is the main reason for feeding light syrup.

Water....

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/212/3/429

Honeybee colonies collect water for two reasons, related to different types of weather: for cooling of the brood area by evaporation on hot days, and for feeding the larval brood when foraging is limited on cool days (Lindauer, 1955Go; Seeley, 1995Go). The classic studies of Lindauer showed how bees regulate the hive temperature in hot conditions (Lindauer, 1955Go). Water is collected by water foragers, then distributed around the hive and in cells containing eggs and larvae; fanning accelerates its evaporation, as does regurgitation and evaporation on the tongue (Lindauer, 1955Go). Visscher and colleagues measured mean water loads of 44 mg in honeybees collecting water under desert conditions (Visscher et al., 1996Go). Paper wasps and hornets also use water for cooling their nests, but the highly social stingless bees do not (Jones and Oldroyd, 2007Go; Roubik, 2006Go).

The second need for water – for consumption by nurse bees when feeding the brood – is an aspect of water use by honeybees that tends to be underestimated (Johansson and Johansson, 1978Go). Nurse bees feed young larvae a secretion from their hypopharyngeal glands; for worker larvae after the third day this jelly is supplemented with honey and pollen (Crailsheim, 1998Go). As already mentioned, the water content of royal jelly is high, so nurse bees have a great need for water when brood rearing is intensive; this water cannot always be obtained from nectar.

The regulation of water collection in honeybees is discussed in detail by Seeley (Seeley, 1995Go). In essence, the rate of unloading of water foragers indicates the colony demand for water (i.e. the feedback system is similar to that for nectar). In this way the balance between collection and consumption of water is maintained. Importantly, water collection does not interfere with the collection of concentrated nectar by the colony (Kuhnholz and Seeley, 1997Go). The first bees to start water collection may be stimulated by the collective increase in crop sugar concentration of all bees in the nest, due to trophallaxis (Lindauer, 1955Go; Seeley, 1995Go), or possibly by the collective increase in haemolymph osmolality. Apart from environmental factors, the tendency of honeybee foragers to collect water, nectar or pollen has a genetic component (Hunt et al., 1995Go). Workers with the lowest sucrose response thresholds, i.e. those able to distinguish low sucrose concentrations from water in proboscis extension response tests, become water foragers (Pankiw and Page, 2000Go).

Water foraging is regulated according to current demand and water is not stored in combs by temperate honeybee colonies: this is because nectar availability fluctuates widely and water sources usually do not (Seeley, 1995Go
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If swarming pre your main flow is your concern is it not better to get it over and done with so you have fresh queen laying up vigorously than to have them swarm during the flow?

It's certainly how I want to manage affairs.

PH

 

[bignikki]

Let them build up at thier own pace, most are 2010 Q's, vigorous enough, hope they don't swarm in June and will happily be busy enough working on the huge July flow ?

 

[Poly Hive]

I don't follow why you' re convinced building in spring leads to June swarming?

Is this something you have read?

PH

 

[Dishmop]

I don't follow why you' re convinced building in spring leads to June swarming?

Is this something you have read?

PH

Possibly thinking along the lines of ????

...rapid build up.... lots of bees....... will bees think they need more room.. and bugger off...????

 

[oliver90owner]

.......because there was no more room?

 

[Dishmop]

.......because there was no more room?

yes......

Its my thoughts on how somebody might think what bees might do....

Might be the bees thoughts as well.............until they think of something else to mess up what we have planned for them...

 

[bignikki]

I don't follow why you' re convinced building in spring leads to June swarming?

Is this something you have read?

PH

It is the opinion of two very experienced old beekeepers in my club , one of who has been my mentor for the past 4 or 5 years.
One used to feed in the spring and drive his bees to the rape/beans or if he was building them up to split to make increase. Otherwise not.

 

[Poly Hive]

Well we are going to have to differ on this one.

How many hives do these chaps run?

The mentor who taught me this wee trick was running 500 and is now up at 750 or so.

I never found swarming to be a big issue, but then I was breeding it out for supercedure.

It's not how long someone has been keeping bees so much as how many hives they have run as one hive per year is a hive year if you follow so a guy with 100 sees a 100 times as much and so on.

PH

 

[honey]

polyhive - taking us all back to your advice at the start of this thread - thank you, clear & concise, & that's exactly what us new bk's need from you more experienced bk's to help us on our way : )

 

[Poly Hive]

Thank you honey I hope there may be more on the way.

PH

(thinking I might as well write a book because it seems I am!)

 

[borderer]

see next post

 

[borderer]

Thank you honey I hope there may be more on the way.

PH

(thinking I might as well write a book because it seems I am!)

I look forward to reading your book, let me know when it is published

 

[oliver90owner]

Well we are going to have to differ on this one.

Differ on what?

As was said earlier, this thread is on spring stimulation. Whether or not the bees are driven to swarm is surely another matter . Entirely another matter of beekeeping.

If you can't control the swarming (and that means avoiding), then don't stimulate in spring. That way you may/will get lesser crops, but if the person concerned can only manage that way, all well and fair enough. It may mean they swarm in July, all the same.

I don't think anyone has said you have to do it the way the thread explains it.

Obviously there are some on here who worry about the 'inevitable' swarming or are unable to keep bees without swarming, if the colonies are really strong in numbers.

I am with PH - I would rather have a decent honeycrop - than leave the bees to start much later, be less likely to swarm in June, be developed just in time for the autumn feeding, etc etc.

The honey crop is the surplus and that needs a lot of bees collecting nectar when the flow is on. Miss it if you wish.

Then we have the sweeping statement: If you need to feed bees in the spring it means you didn't feed enough last autumn.

Poster completely missing the meaning of the thread title and trying to justify their position by that statement, which has absolutely nothing to do with spring stimulation at all.

Everyone has the choice; no-one is being told it must be done that way; PH and a lot of others take advantage of the available flows, by helping the bees to be ready that litttle bit earlier.

Poster's comments are neither appliccable or particularly helpful, as I see it.

RAB