Spring Stimulation.

[blackbrood]

great post. cheers PH

 

[peteinwilts]

had a quick spot check today as the hives are in a warm sheltered spot and have hundreds flying.

I only checked three, but two still had huge amounts of capped syrup and had not started on the fondant.

the third is just starting to explore the fondant but still has a lot of capped syrup.

compared to many, I gave them syrup late on (started in the 3rd week of september) and each hive took 20 litres thymolised syrup.
On top of this, I gave them frames of fondant... (2x 3.5Kg)

.... I use two (home made) double width super frame feeders for feeding syrup. Once they have finished, I replace them with double width fondant feeders (again home made) with large holes in the side and top.

I was not sure if many use frames of fondant, but thought i would give it a try!.... keeps the hive nice and compact without the need of adding an empty super for the fondant...

I have been listening to people putting 5-6 litres of syrup on a hive and a couple of Kg fondant, but my numbers are way over this..... is it possible to feed too much in autumn!?! (I had to take frames of syrup out last year (but gave to caught swarms!))

 

[Dishmop]

The bees in my indoor observation hive drink about half a pint of water per week.

 

[oliver90owner]

Peteinwilts,

A 14 x 12 generally has more than enough stores for winter and spring build-up. Most of mine fed themselves full of honey last autumn, although about four were a couple frames short, or more. It is after all equivalent to about 1.7 deep broods, and a lot of beeks take their hives through the winter with just a single deep.

If you listen to Polyhive, you may get the idea - a box (presumably) and a huge slab of fondant. Some of the fondant is recycled if surplus in spring (I prefer them to have honey and I will get any surplus next year).

If you are taking as much honey as you can, you will be feeding more sugar but you will need to recycle spare frames, as Polyhive does with his fondant.

OK, a lot have been feeding fondant this winter as though it is going out of fashion, but a full National deep should at least get the colony through to the start of serious spring brooding, although it does depend on the strain etc. The jumbo, or extra-deep, is a good overwintering box as far as I am concerned as it does not leave the colony short in early spring.

As I read your post a second time, I am thinking you have left supers of stores on top as well? These hives are your standard deeps, not your jumbos? If so, they should have more stores than a jumbo. I always tried to overwinter on a brood and a super when I was using standard deeps but I am a bit further north than you.

So to your question: is it possible to feed too much in autumn!?! I would say no, as long as you rightly use any surplus for other uses in the spring/summer. Your hive configuration, whatever it might be, needs to be full in the autumn. The bees can then look after themselves all through the winter without disturbance and make a good start in the spring using further stores for early brooding. Too much is far better than not enough!

In the spirit of the thread, your bees may still need a 'stimulant' for early brooding, if they cannot get enough water for converting honey to larval food. Just don't forget she needs space and the larvae need a lot of protein. All these components and some warmth need to be there for a good spring build-up.

Regards, RAB

 

[Skyhook]

Why is it good? I cannot see any idea in it. Thymol has been used over 50 years but spring feeding recommendations I have not seen.

Thanks Finman, no thymol then.

Sadly the answer is experience.

All depends on temperature and when the average is getting to 12 or so then like this afternoon it's time.

I give a suppie of syrup and a slap of pattie. Henceforth know as slurp and slap.

I defy you to forget that. LOL

I use frame feeders (and the disturbance argument is frankly a nonsense) and I give per week less than a pint per colony. You do not want that syrup taking up space. You want to to be used to assist in brooding. And the syrup is at 1:1 ratio. One pound per pint of water or one kilo per litre of water. No more than that and even a little less is ok.

Pollen we have discussed.

I will do another post on working the brood. Just a bit early for that yet anyway.

PH

Thanks PH, next opportunity I'll take the fondant off and get some 1:1 syrup on. My options are a rapid feeder or a small contact feeder; but in order to spread 1 pint over a week, I might try the old syrup tin with a few pin holes. I'm assuming that a pint on day 1 followed by 6 days of nothing doesn't give the right signals, and I want to avoid overdoing it.

 

[Busy Bee]

I have never used fondant ever there is no need for it...

and yes I feed sugar/thymol always even with nuc's so Finman correct yourself your giving bad advise.

Thymol can be used if only to ensure sugar doesn not set hard. Since I got really sound advise from a member on this forum I never looked back it seems from my limited knowledge people who donot use thymol come on this forum "Have I got Nosema or Dysentry?"

If you had of feed Thymol/Syrup instead of this fondant you would have had no trouble.

Regards


Busy Bee

 

[Poly Hive]

That's a pretty sweeping statement Busy.

PH

 

[Finman]

I have never used fondant ever there is no need for it...

and yes I feed sugar/thymol always even with nuc's so Finman correct yourself your giving bad advise.

Can you tell why you use thymol? You are not afraid that you sell mynth honey?

Thymol can be used if only to ensure sugar doesn not set hard.

It cannot be a reason. If you mix fructose in food, it keeps it soft. It takes moisture from air.

"Have I got Nosema or Dysentry?"

If you had of feed Thymol/Syrup instead of this fondant you would have had no trouble.

Nosema is autumn and winter disease. It goes away when bees start to fly in spring and they empty their rectum regularly. If thymol is nosema medicin at all.


"Shake the bees, if you do not know what to do"

 

[drex]

Peteinwilts,

So to your question: is it possible to feed too much in autumn!?! I would say no, as long as you rightly use any surplus for other uses in the spring/summer.
Regards, RAB

As a beginner, could you please clarify for me RAB? I thought if you fed too much, there was a danger of not leaving the queen enough space to lay winter brood?

Thanks, just a bit confused. And "if you don't ask.........."

Des

 

[Poly Hive]

Ideally drex you feed the colony until they say they are stuffed full or the weather cools and they cannot take any more and cluster.

The queen ideally should not be laying until the turn of the year, or even later, and there will be enough space for her to lay in then by reason of stores consumption.

The next trick is to manage the brood box to expand the colony as fast as they can go but that is for another thread.

PH

 

[drex]

Ideally drex you feed the colony until they say they are stuffed full or the weather cools and they cannot take any more and cluster.

The queen ideally should not be laying until the turn of the year,

PH

Thanks PH.

RAB was talking about autumn feeding. In posts last year, I never did understand, to feed until they take no more (?" stuffed full"), and still to be sure there was enough space for her to lay to produce the winter bees.

Looking forward to your post about working the brood box. Have read what Hooper says and did a little last year, but would value your experience.

 

[Finman]

.
One advice in feeding is that bees do not cap the food if you do not feed the box full. It depends how much the box allready have honey and pollen and how much they can take in.

In nature bees collect winter food in summer and cap it.
In nature, during million of years, they have not opportunity to take in more food during winter. Mother Nature has no fondant.

 

[oliver90owner]

drex,

I posted, quote: So to your question: is it possible to feed too much in autumn!?! I would say no, as long as you rightly use any surplus for other uses in the spring/summer.

The explanation was in second half of the sentence.

IF the excess is used elsewhere, or otherwise disposed of, there is no real problem. You cannot 'over-feed' - when the box is full, the box is full, the bees stop taking it and the stores are all capped.

Now, you can overfeed from the point of view of the 'wrong time'. Fill the box before she has provided those all important winter bees and there will be too few of them going into winter (if there is severely limited laying space for her). Not feeding enough (until the box is full) can lead to uncapped stores going into winter - and that can ferment.

The post was obviously to Pete and I replied to his post: "as you rightly use any surplus for other uses" because that is what he said he had to do last year (where he posted: "(I had to take frames of syrup out last year (but gave to caught swarms!))" ).

He had more stores than required for overwintering the bees, but did the right thing in removing the surplus to allow her laying space.

Clearer now?

So you may be able to see that autumn feeding has more than just a single aspect to be considered. Just as per Skyhook's signature!

RAB

 

[Finman]

.
You may overfeed hives in spring. They have too much food stores and they have not sace fo brood an pollen from nature.

I use to take off extra food frames from hives and give them to those, which have too low store level. This way i destroy the winter sugar stores before new honey yield comes in.

But every time in spring hive needs minimum 5 kg food. It is one week food in spring.



Problems: feed feed and feed...

 

[Skyhook]

As a beginner, could you please clarify for me RAB? I thought if you fed too much, there was a danger of not leaving the queen enough space to lay winter brood?

Thanks, just a bit confused. And "if you don't ask.........."

Des

I had this worry, but that was because I was late feeding. If you feed while the brood is still contracting, ie when HM is reducing her laying from summer levels, they will have enough space.

 

[drex]

Thanks RAB and others. Now I understand.

 

[Busy Bee]

Finman your not the bee all and end all of bee keeping and no I don't sell Thymol Honey but I keep healthy and good hives of bees.

By the way you said not to over feed the bees then you said

"feed, feed and feed.

Which is to be?

Busy Bee

 

[Finman]

Finman your not the bee all and end all of bee keeping and no I don't sell Thymol Honey but I keep healthy and good hives of bees.

By the way you said not to over feed the bees then you said

"feed, feed and feed.

Which is to be?

Busy Bee

Sorry, I have not know that Ireland has not English humour. Do as you like.
You know better after all.

 

[peteinwilts]

I had this worry, but that was because I was late feeding. If you feed while the brood is still contracting, ie when HM is reducing her laying from summer levels, they will have enough space.

Why do you want to leave space? This would be under the assumption that they will have no space for laying brood, when HM starts laying brood.

I fill to the gills (relatively) late on to assume by the time she starts laying, they will have chomped through a good amount of their stores and created space.

 

[bignikki]

All this talk of feeding in the spring--- I've always been led to understand that if you feed in the spring then you encourage the numbers to build up TOO EARLY. Which is fine if they are going on to the OSR which is an early crop- so you need the numbers' or if you are going to rear new queens in the colony- you need the numbers.
BUT--- by encouraging early build up, the bees are happy in April- May when there's nectar coming in, come June when there's a natural break in nectar producing flowers the bees will be almost guaranteed to swarm.
This is fine if you want to deal with, or have the equipment to split every hive but if not don't feed them in the spring ,unless of course they have run out of stores.
If you need to feed bees in the spring it means you didn't feed enough last autumn.
I stand to be corrected though!