Spraying Apple cider vinegar over honey bees

[rolande]

He appears to be around still https://parkerbees.square.site/

Is he? He did say that he'd leave his stuff up so long as it was financially viable to do so but clearly stated that he was out of beekeeping.

Hence my total disregard. When someone walks away from a project after being very vocal about the 'rightness' of it, all I can do is shrug my shoulders and carry on with my own life.

 

[Beesnaturally]

More a case of glossing over the need of a very wide selection of genes, not 'just' those that have been coopted to combat varroa.

Not at all. Its not getting distracted by, lost in, unnecessary details. Its the fundamentals that matter: and the fundamental is that natural selection is operating at all levels - as described.

Many many beasties and plants have weird and wonderful sex lives. What works works.

ALL have natural selection operating throughout.

Queens benefit from a wide selection, yes. No argument. (There is also very little you can do to AVOID them getting that so what's the beef?) Genes conferring varroa resistance may be passed on through the queen and/or through some drones. A wild population will naturally locate (ever-shifting) optimal levels of those genes that produce best health.

When discussing the journey there is no need to understand the workings of the differential. You need to be focussed on navigation and fuel, first and foremost.

We could have half-baked discussions (because neither of us are bee scientists) about polyandry for weeks. But we don't need to do that - or a thousand other things - in order to get a clear picture of what a beekeeper wanting to be treatment-free benefits from knowing. So let's not.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Is he? He did say that he'd leave his stuff up so long as it was financially viable to do so but clearly stated that he was out of beekeeping.

Hence my total disregard. When someone walks away from a project after being very vocal about the 'rightness' of it, all I can do is shrug my shoulders and carry on with my own life.

Last I spoke to him he was leaving the forums, heartily sick of the nonsense he and other 'unorthodox' beekeepers had to put up with.
Lets try to get an update before judging; but also remember that he may have been perfectly right in everything he said about bees and beekeeping, but chosen, or been forced by circumstances to leave it. That takes nothing at all away from what he said that was right.

 

[rolande]

so what's the beef?

The beef, as you put it, is your condemnation of supporting colonies with treatment because their genes dilute those of the non treated colonies.

My point is that it's probably far more complex than only maintaining surviver colonies.

 

[rolande]

Lets try to get an update before judging;

I'm not judging.

He clearly stated that he was 'done beekeeping' and was getting rid of his kit

 

[Beesnaturally]

The beef, as you put it, is your condemnation of supporting colonies with treatment because their genes dilute those of the non treated colonies.

My point is that it's probably far more complex than only maintaining surviver colonies.

What is the 'it' that is complicated?

What is the complication that we need to know in order to do what bees do all on their own?

What is the complication that was faced by bee farmers in Ancient Egypt, or is faced by uneducated subsistence farmers in Africa?

As John Kefuss says: When you ride in an aeroplane you don't have to know how it works. You only need to know that it works.

 

[Ely]

Ok, so why are you here in the treatment free section? Just to give us your definition of beekeeping?

'Husbandry' has two meanings. The first is the 'husbandry' of the genes down through the generations. It refers to the age-old and essential practice of choosing only the best individuals to mate, and carry the bloodline forward. This, selective mating, is what makes livestock farming possible. It is the care of the genes, the strain, down through the generations, that produce the livestock- for present benefit, and for the future of the son who will inherit the operation.

This is taking care of livestock in its deepest and most essential sense.

Selective mating is a direct imitation of natural selection. It weeds out the weak, the unproductive, and the disease-prone, and thus maximises the chances of having healthy and productive animals.

The second meaning is the simple care of individuals and farm populations.

Try to take this idea in:

If you keep weak and sickly individuals alive, and allow them to send their genes into the next and future generations, you will weaken those future generations.

I can see this is all unfamiliar to you. Can I ask you to take time to think about what is the standard, and science-based, understanding of the facts of inherited traits, and the direct parallel between natural selection for the fittest strains and the standard husbandry practice of closed selective mating?

Once you have a grip on those things we will be able to speak about the special case of honeybees. Until then it would be pointless.

Could you be any more condescending ? I am well aware of the natural world, survival of the fittest and the evolutionary process. I'll say it again, its just a bit different from hobbyist beekeeping. Especially for those with very few hives and light wallets to replace deadouts that could have been prevented with some decent husbandry.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Could you be any more condescending ? I am well aware of the natural world, survival of the fittest and the evolutionary process. I'll say it again, its just a bit different from hobbyist beekeeping. Especially for those with very few hives and light wallets to replace deadouts that could have been prevented with some decent husbandry.

When I write to forums I write to anybody who might want to learn something from me. That's probably not you.

Being 'aware' of natural selection etc is not the same thing as knowing much about it.

Whether or not the natural world is different from 'hobbyist beekeeping' depends entirely on how you go about 'hobbyist beekeeping'.

What you call 'decent husbandry' is entirely dependent on what the object of husbandry is for you. For me it is the local population, first, the objective of having my own productive bees second.

I could say I'm surprised that you haven't understood that yet.

If anyone here has a lighter wallet than mine I'll be shocked. You try putting together a beekeeping livelihood from scratch with no money to invest and no house to live in. Let us know when you've accomplished it. If you can accomplish it without treating or interfering with your bees in any way I'll be impressed.

 

[Mint Bee]

 

[Anduril]

This thread is erroneously in the Treatment Free section, it should be in the Honeybee Health Topics.
If you consider spraying bees and frames with apple cider vinegar, which is the whole point of this thread, then it is not treatment free, it is instead chemical intervention. There is a lot of chest beating on this thread, instead of discussing a scientific paper and the video that I will attach. The paper a study done in the Czech Republic demonstrates how the CHEMICAL is used to rid the hive of certain viruses. Everyone should feel comfortable in commenting on this thread.

​

 

[Beesnaturally]

If you consider spraying bees and frames with apple cider vinegar, which is the whole point of this thread, then it is not treatment free, it is instead chemical intervention.

Yes, but we've wandered. The bulk of the thread is now about treatment free beekeeping.

 

[Anduril]

Yes, but we've wandered. The bulk of the thread is now about treatment free beekeeping.

You haven't responded to the context of the beginning of the thread, nor my last post, but just dismissed it as a hijack.

 

[Beesnaturally]

You haven't responded to the context of the beginning of the thread, nor my last post, but just dismissed it as a hijack.

Fair enough, I suppose I hijacked it first. Apple cider (hard or otherwise) doesn't interest me. Its a treatment, in the treatment free section, and should be in the health section as you suggest.

In an ideal world the thread might be split and moved/relabelled...

 

[Anduril]

Fair enough, I suppose I hijacked it first. Apple cider (hard or otherwise) doesn't interest me. Its a treatment, in the treatment free section, and should be in the health section as you suggest.

In an idea world the thread might be split and moved/relabelled...

Thank you for your response.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This thread is erroneously in the Treatment Free section, it should be in the Honeybee Health Topics.

Yes you’re right. I’ll move it
It is after all a “treatment”

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Could you be any more condescending

give him a chance - he's only just started