Splitting

[Jake]

Hi guys,
Not sure if this is the right idea
So i'm thinking of splitting my hive to give me back up for winter.
My colony was a swarm given to me and they have done really well the brood box is full up with eggs, capped brood etc and so many bees.
As I don't know how old the queen is I was thinking of removing her with a frame of capped brood and bees into a nuc, letting hive produce a new queen, if this fails to work I was thinking I could reunite old queen and bees back.
It is getting quite late into the Yr that's main worry for a new queen to mate etc

 

[drex]

Still plenty of time.

 

[enrico]

That is fine.....no problem...it is only July! It will give you a big brood break though so I presume your main flows are over?
E

 

[Jake]

Flow seems to have slowed down they are still bringing in yellow pollen.
Would it be sensible to do the split now and make 2 weaker hives rather than one strong? I just want a some back up if it doesn't make it through winter then I will have to start all over again next Yr and be in same situation as this Yr a good colony but no crop

 

[enrico]

Two is better than one in my opinion

 

[Ian123]

Flow seems to have slowed down they are still bringing in yellow pollen.
Would it be sensible to do the split now and make 2 weaker hives rather than one strong? I just want a some back up if it doesn't make it through winter then I will have to start all over again next Yr and be in same situation as this Yr a good colony but no crop

Your not a million miles from me and your yellow pollen will be chestnut or I’ll eat my hat. A lot of chestnut is just about over but with the weather improving next week I would hold off for a week at least if you have any eye on honey production.

 

[Angry_Mob]

What I'd do is order a queen for delivery mid August and then split; gives opportunity to get some honey in the mean time.

 

[Jake]

I dont think I will have any luck with honey this Yr, I put a super on 2 weeks ago so foundation frames and they haven't even touched them I know weather has been rubbish, this is why I think I should concentrate on peeping them for winter

 

[Angry_Mob]

Bit early yet and if you only get your super frames drawn you're in a better position for next year.

 

[Jake]

That is true would they still draw them out if I have removed queen or would they concentrate on making new queen cells

 

[Jake]

Would it be better to just do a split by removing some frames rather than removing old queen and a frame of brood etc

 

[Swarm]

Easiest way, Jake is to take two frames of sealed/emerging brood, stores and comb and introduce a nice queen. It puts less stress on the existing colony.

 

[Swarm]

That is true would they still draw them out if I have removed queen or would they concentrate on making new queen cells

They would ignore them because they know they don't need them, bees only draw wax when they need to. Even by doing what I suggested, you weaken them and their potential to draw wax and/or fill it.
If you want drawn combs and the chance of honey, don't split them.

 

[Jake]

To be honest I csnt make my mind up what to do I just don't want to have to start all over again next Yr

 

[Swarm]

I'd concentrate on the colony, getting it strong and healthy.

 

[drdrday]

To be honest I csnt make my mind up what to do I just don't want to have to start all over again next Yr

It's a tricky choice to make when everything seems to be riding on it in your first year! Some will stay build up one strong colony and some will say two is better. I think you need to do whichever you feel most comfortable with. Just be decisive and stick with it ☺

 

[Angularity]

It's a tricky choice to make when everything seems to be riding on it in your first year! Some will stay build up one strong colony and some will say two is better. I think you need to do whichever you feel most comfortable with. Just be decisive and stick with it ☺

Factors to consider. If we put disease to one side, then a colony dies over winter because of cold or starvation (alright then, MY colonies have died over winter because of...). Bees eat their stores and shiver to keep the cluster warm. Insulate the hive enough and they'll need less food. Leave them enough food, and top it up with fondant if necessary, and they should be OK. Make sure if they eat all the fondant, that doesn't leave a gaping hole in the top of the hive which means the hive gets cold and they starve.

If the split is solely to provide a back-up then you'll need to be sure that your bees build up quickly in the spring, otherwise you're wasting your time. You'll end up with two weak colonies which will faff about until May, and leave you wondering why you bother, come honey-harvest time.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think there's too much pressure from the usual suspects to get beginners to split their hives in the first season with no real discussions as to the why's and wherefore's.
Here you have a shiny faced first year beekeeper, given a mid season nuc, they build it up over the summer, but it is still a young colony, then, July/august they're encouraged to split - notwithstanding the year through Russian roulette of queen mating they are left with the original colony having to build up again just as the flow peters out and we are looking at end of season housekeeping and a weak slowly building nuc headed by a new queen. All being handled by an inexperienced beekeeper being 'advised' by the usual crowd of wannabe experts who glean most of their knowledge from comics plagiarising manuals badly written a century ago.
THAT is why beginners experience heavy losses in their first winter whilst, if they held firm, built up their original colony to be strong enough to withstand the winter, treated them properly and timely for varroa and fed correctly and heavily, not the dribs and drabs in tiny feeders - they would come through winter (okay, some losses are unavoidable, but such is life) with a proper full colony which builds up quickly and which a nuc could be taken off earlier to give them two strong colonies going into their third season when they are much better equipped to nurse them.

 

[Swarm]

Precisely.

 

[Murox]

...snip... pressure.... to get beginners to split their hives in the first season with no real discussions as to the why's and wherefore's..... given a mid season nuc, they build it up over the summer, but it is still a young colony, then, July/august they're encouraged to split - notwithstanding the year through Russian roulette of queen mating they are left with the original colony having to build up again just as the flow peters out and we are looking at end of season housekeeping and a weak slowly building nuc headed by a new queen.......THAT is why beginners experience heavy losses in their first winter whilst, if they held firm, built up their original colony to be strong enough to withstand the winter, treated them properly and timely for varroa and fed correctly and heavily, not the dribs and drabs in tiny feeders - they would come through winter ...snip....with a proper full colony which builds up quickly and which a nuc could be taken off earlier to give them two strong colonies going into their third season when they are much better equipped to nurse them.

I completely agree with the sentiments, I am amazed that anyone would encourage a new beekeeper to split a hive in the first season; usually it means everything is foundation - puts a lot of stress on the bees as well as the novice.