Splitting my colony into a tbh

[hailtryfan]

Hello all knowing and experienced beeks. I have one small wbc colony (which is on 14x12s) that hopefully will make it through to the spring and one empty top bar hive which I would like to install some bees.

To save money i would ideally like to split the wbc. I have heard of the chop and crop technique but it seems very drastic. Are there any other options? I presume others have done this so please let me know you experiences.

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere but I could not find a thread about it.

Thanks
Mike

 

[susbees]

Chop and crop is drastic and we no longer do it (or need to). Wait til you need to AS for swarm control and then install the "swarm" half in the top bar. Ensure the hive is level and put some reasonably big foundation guides on every second frame of the space you give them. They will learn to build straight...some bees are terrible at comb building wherever you put them (it's genetic). Don't forget to use dummy boards to keep them warm and feed.

Of course you could always try to attract a swarm into it or put yourself on the local BKA swarm wanted list.

 

[drex]

Susbees,

I too am interested as I built a KTBH last autumn and will populate it this year. My reading of " natural beekeeping" forums was that chop and crop seemed to be the preferred method.

When doing AS ( only been keeping for 2 seasons) I put queen in on a frame of brood. I assume your are saying this is not needed, just put her into the virgin TBH on the original site?

How many top bars would you start them off with then? The method I was intending to use with the top bars was a square batten about 3/16 " on the underside of the bar and painted with wax as per Phil Chandler

 

[Mike a]

I would recommend the best method to start a TBH is catch a swarm and place them in the TBH or use the TBH as a bait hive and keep your fingers crossed. (if you look through this forum there is plenty of threads on how to set up a hive as a bait hive)

Next would be the crop and chop method which isn't ideal but it has its advantages as the colony has stores, brood and ready made combs even if you only crop and chop 2-3 frames and place them in the TBH for a few weeks until the colony build a few more combs.

If the crop and chop method is a little to much then as Susbees suggests wait until the colony builds up to a suitable size and starts to build queen cells before you proceed.

I would suggest remove the queen and place her in the TBH along with 5-6 frames worth of bees to simulate the swarming action.

If you intend to move a queen cell along with bees you are taking a gamble that the queen cell(s) you transfer may not produce a good queen and you will need to figure out a way of attaching the queen cell in a suitable place so it hangs downwards for the colony to look after it (bearing in mind they will cluster on it so it will need to be securely attached) Plus you will still need to manage the parent hive to prevent them from swarming.

Which ever method you opt for other than a swarm
You will need to feed the TBH small amounts of sugar syrup for 1-2 weeks to help them build the new combs quickly and keep them condensed with no more than 4-5 top bars to start with.

Hope this helps.

 

[susbees]

What he said. Thanks Mike .

But after putting a modified Dadant six framer into a top bar (and a Nat nuc previously) I would never go that route again so that would be my third choice. And I wouldn't move a queen cell personally.

 

[drstitson]

How long are the top bars for your TBH?

if it were me - aside from either catching a swarm OR doing a taranov AS - i'd go for a slow AS approach.

first i'd knock up some kingspan wedges that fit against the sides of a brood box and simulate the angled sides of a TBH.

then i'd set up some top bars with starter strips (final top bars or thin wooden strips that can be attached/modified for final installation in TBH.

sandwich a couple of these bars in the middle of the brood box (plus wedges). likewise place a couple with wedges, between drawn frames and outer dummies/insulation, in a second box on top. Maybe repeat and rearrange to give a decent number of drawn frames (with brood) in top box.

then - finally, ensuring you have eggs and larvae present, raise top box above a QE + super (maybe with a cloake board or similar), leaving just normal frames in bottom and top bars in top.

wait til top queen mated and laying then transfer to the TBH.

 

[Chris B]

Another option:
Wait for your WBC supers to be full of bees. Shake the super bees into a swarm/package box and add a bought queen (still caged) to make your own package. A day or so later install the package into your TBH. I've set up a few Warre's like this myself. I had 4 or 5 successes and then the last one absconded on me so next time I might use a queen excluder.

The small print: ideal weight of super bees is 3lb. You need to provide feed while in the package box. The queen cage is suspended from a wire and the bees cluster around it. Ideally avoid drones in the package. Keep the package cool and well ventilated. If in doubt go for a smaller weight of bees.

 

[hailtryfan]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'll definitely put my name on the local swarm list and build a couple of bait hives. I'll put some swarm attractant in my tbh as well.

Quite fancy the challenge of splitting the hive though so will probably try and do an artificial swarm as well. Would be happy to finish the year with 3 or 4 colonies.

There's been lots of interesting suggestions which have got me thinking.

drstitson - My top bars are 19'' so I could put a few in the hive with some wedges as suggested to help with the AS. I don't have another brood box at the moment, but is it possible to use a cloake board with a wbc? What would be the advantage of a Taranov AS over the usual shook swarm?

Chris B - I have considered buying in another queen, but wasn't sure what the advantage would be over letting my bees raise another one. Also, how would I estimate the weight of bees?

Sorry for the newbie questions guys and girls and thanks again for the advice

Mike

 

[drstitson]

"My top bars are 19'' so I could put a few in the hive with some wedges as suggested to help with the AS."

Won't fit. You'll need to use 17" long stripwood as a temporary starter which you can then screw or cable-tie to your proper top bars when transferring.

"I don't have another brood box at the moment"

Tut tut - not been keeping our struggling UK beekeeping supplies industry afloat in the winter sales?

"is it possible to use a cloake board with a wbc?"

yes - just needs a bit of DIY to provide the access through the lifts.
However for simplicity can just rely on supercedure impulse rather than enforced orphanage (even if only temporary using the board).

"What would be the advantage of a Taranov AS over the usual shook swarm?"

Arguably more natural. More impressive trick.

"Also, how would I estimate the weight of bees?"

why estimate? you're shaking into a box. weigh the box before and after OR just keep on some scales whilst filling!!!!

 

[hailtryfan]

"My top bars are 19'' so I could put a few in the hive with some wedges as suggested to help with the AS."

Won't fit. You'll need to use 17" long stripwood as a temporary starter which you can then screw or cable-tie to your proper top bars when transferring.

"I don't have another brood box at the moment"

Tut tut - not been keeping our struggling UK beekeeping supplies industry afloat in the winter sales?

"Also, how would I estimate the weight of bees?"

why estimate? you're shaking into a box. weigh the box before and after OR just keep on some scales whilst filling!!!!

Self correction - my top bars are actually 17'' (430mm). Went and measured one

I meant how could I estimate the weight before shaking the bees into a box. Is a full supers-worth about 3lb?

Mike

 

[drstitson]

"my top bars are actually 17''

Perfect - no need to bodge an intermediate step.

 

[hailtryfan]

A little change of plan. Accidently bought another 14x12 hive today Going to split into that hive and wait for a swarm for the tbh.

I'm really looking forward to spring...

 

[drex]

Hope you have told the bees your plans and they agree!!

 

[hailtryfan]

Was hoping i could bribe the bees. Second thought probably easier to bribe the local BBKA to point me in the direction of a swarm.

What would a beek find impossible to resist???