Split with supercedure cells?

[robmort]

I have one hive built up from a swarm collected at the end of May, and now occupying approx 6-7 frames of mixed brood (eggs, larvae, capped) and stores.

The potential problem is 3 capped queen cells and one queen larva which seems to be supercedure cells, alongside the laying queen.

Do I just let them supercede and possibly swarm?
Or is it better to make an artificial swarm as insurance against losing some, whilst weakening the colony?

Rob

 

[Anduril]

I have one hive built up from a swarm collected at the end of May, and now occupying approx 6-7 frames of mixed brood (eggs, larvae, capped) and stores.

The potential problem is 3 capped queen cells and one queen larva which seems to be supercedure cells, alongside the laying queen.

Do I just let them supercede and possibly swarm?
Or is it better to make an artificial swarm as insurance against losing some, whilst weakening the colony?

Rob

You only have one hive, do an artificial swarm, to stop you losing your queen and you have the reassurance of a second hive if one fails over the winter.

 

[taurus]

I have a colony that regularly produces supercedure cells even though the queen is young and laying well.

I have taken the frames with the cells out, put them in a nuc, thinned down to one or two (it's your call how many) and from that have raised three excellent colonies over the past year.

The original colony produce no honey at all, but it's a good source of very prolific queen's.

I'd therefore agree with the suggestion above.

 

[robmort]

Thanks.

I guess any split would disrupt the hive compared to a natural supercession but is safer than a possible lost swarm.

If I did a normal AS would it be advisable to leave one capped QC with the queen to allow a possible supercession still as they seem keen on it and would be unlikely to swarm, whilst making tranferring the old hive with one or two QCs to a new location?

 

[Anduril]

Thanks.

I guess any split would disrupt the hive compared to a natural supercession but is safer than a possible lost swarm.

If I did a normal AS would it be advisable to leave one capped QC with the queen to allow a possible supercession still as they seem keen on it and would be unlikely to swarm, whilst making tranferring the old hive with one or two QCs to a new location?

No because they may swarm and you may not be around to collect it. After the split if they decide to draw more queen cells then leave one open queen cell.

 

[Poly Hive]

Can I just be pedantic here and mention that supercedure is one thing and swarming another.

Supercedure is replacing the queen resulting in no increase.

Swarming is reproduction creating increase.

Quite different motives and methodology for the bees.

PH

 

[Madge]

... Swarming is reproduction creating increase.



Quite different motives and methodology for the bees.



PH

Yes - but the problem is that we, as beekeepers, can’t really distinguish between the two. I’ve just made that mistake. Only one queen cell and a 2015 queen, so I let them be - and they swarmed off - gone.

 

[Anduril]

Yes - but the problem is that we, as beekeepers, can’t really distinguish between the two. I’ve just made that mistake. Only one queen cell and a 2015 queen, so I let them be - and they swarmed off - gone.

I've had them do that to me and I ended up losing the hive. They need to write the books for us. The OP had 3 capped cells and one open, irrespective of where they are on the frame they are swarm cells.

 

[Dadnlad]

Can I just be pedantic here and mention that supercedure is one thing and swarming another.

Supercedure is replacing the queen resulting in no increase.

Swarming is reproduction creating increase.

Quite different motives and methodology for the bees.

PH

Agreed, but sometimes the little darlings/buggers will swarm on ss cells. I have confidently left 2 'classic' capped ss cells to get on with it, only to arrive at my allotment to find a prime swarm hanging off an apple tree, which when caught and hived turned out to be my marked q from the ss colony - lucky I went that day or she'd have been away

 

[Eyeman]

Yes - but the problem is that we, as beekeepers, can’t really distinguish between the two. I’ve just made that mistake. Only one queen cell and a 2015 queen, so I let them be - and they swarmed off - gone.

Queen cells during the 'swarming season' assume swarm preps.
I only see supercedure when I notice two queens together in the same hive or a queen that hasn't been marked and clipped.

 

[Poly Hive]

Mellifera Crofter I thought you were running Amm? No??

PH

 

[Madge]

Mellifera Crofter I thought you were running Amm? No??



PH

Perhaps ... who knows for sure. I definitely also have yellow bums in some colonies.

But how should having AMMs have affected my decision to think they wanted to supersede the queen? Do AMMs behave differently in that respect?

 

[robmort]

>>> If I did a normal AS would it be advisable to leave one capped QC with the queen to allow a possible supercession still as they seem keen on it and would be unlikely to swarm, whilst transferring the old hive with one or two QCs to a new location?

No because they may swarm and you may not be around to collect it. After the split if they decide to draw more queen cells then leave one open queen cell.

The reason I suggested this is because the old queen is still there, they haven't swarmed yet, so this seems to confirm they are supercedure cells. Hence they would probably still want to supercede the old queen even if she were AS'd so why not leave a queen cell with her to make it easier?

 

[drex]

" they haven't swarmed yet" you say, yet being the operative word.
One does an AS because they are in swarm mode.
For a typical Pagden AS one puts the queen in new box, on old site, with two frames of brood ( but no queen cells). Foragers return to old site and finding the nest virtually empty think they have swarmed. This hopefully, turns off the swarm impulse.

 

[Anduril]

>>> If I did a normal AS would it be advisable to leave one capped QC with the queen to allow a possible supercession still as they seem keen on it and would be unlikely to swarm, whilst transferring the old hive with one or two QCs to a new location?



The reason I suggested this is because the old queen is still there, they haven't swarmed yet, so this seems to confirm they are supercedure cells. Hence they would probably still want to supercede the old queen even if she were AS'd so why not leave a queen cell with her to make it easier?

This will end in tears, as drex describes above. 4 queen cells are not typical of supersedure.

 

[robmort]

This will end in tears, as drex describes above. 4 queen cells are not typical of supersedure.

So why haven't they swarmed already when the laying queen is still there happily going about her business???

If they wanted to swarm they would have already....

 

[Anduril]

So why haven't they swarmed already when the laying queen is still there happily going about her business???

If they wanted to swarm they would have already....

Time span?

 

[drex]

Do as you will
The bees have surprised me a few times, thinking they were super ceding, and they have swarmed.
Supercedure is more common later in the year.

 

[robmort]

There are now 4 sealed QCs, 2 on each of 2 frames.

Despite the advice from the books and from local BKs to "leave the bees well alone and let them get on with it", I decided to split so, with advice from a mentor, we put the queen and 2 QCs in a hive (call it nucleus to fit in with standard practice) with 2 brood frames, 1 stores and foundation, and kept the other best 2 QCs in the old hive.

He's confident that they'll not swarm and will continue to supersede if they want.