Some help on what has happened here

[Antipodes]

who said they'd seen that?

Post #16

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

no he didn't

 

[Antipodes]

no he didn't

Let's just let him answer?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

OK, you're the expert on varroa I suppose

 

[Antipodes]

OK, you're the expert on varroa I suppose

No, I'm absolutely not!
In a case like this where the OP (CaptainCymru) has had this varroa issue and it kills the colony, what happens to the adult bees? You've answered the question well, thank you, but I'm also interested to hear from Madasafish and the OP (or anyone else) about their experiences with what happens with the adult bees when you get a colony that suddenly crashes - particularly a big one.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

what happens with the adult bees when you get a colony that suddenly crashes - particularly a big one.

you've been told but seem to be happy to remain in ignorance, I've seen it happen more than once and have been told of others from people who have witnessed it.
The OP himself has convinced himself (with no evidence) tjat they swarmed themselved to a standstill, but I think that is more based on guesswork than fact.

 

[Karol]

It doesn't look like foul brood to me, looks more like a virus epidemic, those hatching bees with their tongues poking out is the classic look of varroa collapse.
Maybe too little too late with treatment or domino effect of other collapsing colonies in the area.

Tongues poking out is also a sign of chemically tetanized muscle.

 

[Erichalfbee]

what happens to the adult bees?

They die in the field and dead and dying bees are cleared away by the living. I don't know if you've seen undertakers at their job? Yes, some bees are simply tossed out of the entrance but most are carried away.
OR
As once happened to me in mid-winter they remain dropped on the floor, deep enough to cut off air supply so that any remaining living bees suffocate.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Tongues poking out is also a sign of chemically tetanized muscle.

In emerging bees?

 

[CaptainCymru]

So upon further investigation

The split hive has a new queen .

The original hive has the same queen (found her wondering the frames alone , which was heartbreaking ) .

There wasn’t many dead bees on the floorboard , perhaps a handful , although only there were quite a few chewed off heads , perhaps wasp attack later on.

I agree that I got it wrong with the 2 hives into winter thing even though my gut instinct told me not to do that .

I’m going back to using the strips for varroa treatment and the gas vap for early spring .

I’m just surprised the varroa load built up so quickly In one season even after giving a few knock downs in Sept.

The last thing that is bothering me and you guys can help , I had a heavy bind weed infestation in the garden , think jungle and gave it a heavy dose of roundup , I’m wondering if that may have killed them too or added to stress ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

The last thing that is bothering me and you guys can help , I had a heavy bind weed infestation in the garden , think jungle and gave it a heavy dose of roundup , I’m wondering if that may have killed them too or added to stress ?

I was at the NHS and there was a piece about how glyphosate affects bees despite “common knowledge” that it doesn’t

 

[Newbeeneil]

I was at the NHS and there was a piece about how glyphosate affects bees despite “common knowledge” that it doesn’t

I was looking to see if that video was up on YouTube yet…… it isn’t

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sometimes they take a while. Nigel Semmence’s one is.

 

[CaptainCymru]

Thank you for all your replies , at least the season wasn’t a complete waste .

 

[mbc]

They die in the field and dead and dying bees are cleared away by the living. I don't know if you've seen undertakers at their job? Yes, some bees are simply tossed out of the entrance but most are carried away.
OR
As once happened to me in mid-winter they remain dropped on the floor, deep enough to cut off air supply so that any remaining living bees suffocate.

The majority of relatively vigorous adult bees do actually abscond* in most cases of varroa collapse.
As the morale of the colony fades the scent becomes less and less attractive to returning foragers and so they find their way into more attractive hives, hence the whole domino effect as they take some of the pathogens and varroa with them.

Edit:* they abscond in dribs and drabs rather than the more usual absconding on mass associated with the word when used in reference to bees.

 

[CaptainCymru]

The majority of relatively vigorous adult bees do actually abscond in most cases of varroa collapse.
As the morale of the colony fades the scent becomes less and less attractive to returning foragers and so they find they're way into more attractive hives, hence the whole domino effect as they take some of the pathogens and varroa with them.

I’m wondering if that’s what’s happened to me , someone’s hives nearby . To collapse in one season seems bizarre .

 

[mbc]

I’m wondering if that’s what’s happened to me , someone’s hives nearby . To collapse in one season seems bizarre .

Quite likely, depends on the base rate of varroa infection your bees started with mind.
The other side of the coin is that you might have neighbour's scratching their heads wondering where this sudden varroa influx has come from as your colonies collapsed

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The last thing that is bothering me and you guys can help , I had a heavy bind weed infestation in the garden , think jungle and gave it a heavy dose of roundup , I’m wondering if that may have killed them too or added to stress ?

I was at the NHS and there was a piece about how glyphosate affects bees despite “common knowledge” that it doesn’t

But I don't recall you/him saying that it triggered a sudden colony collapse?
In the past I often sprayed glyphosate around the hives and never noticed any substantial/sudden mortalities afterwards (in fact, I made a point n monitoring the easily accessible colonies). In the light of the new findings, I'm not denying
There seems to be a disease amongst beekeepers (I confess, I include myself in this - and not just with bees) where, when paced with an obvious reason for the death or malaise of a colony, they have to scrabble around looking for some other obscure or esoteric explanation for what has happened rather than face plain blunt facts, treat it as a learning point then move on and learn from the experience.

 

[pargyle]

I’m wondering if that’s what’s happened to me , someone’s hives nearby . To collapse in one season seems bizarre .

There's a few 'early years lessons' you have learnt here ... Don't beat yourself up about it, it's disheartening and costly but what you have to do now is learn the lessons, make a note for the future and move on - fresh start next year:

1. There is nothing wrong with either OA by sublimation or the Gas Vap (if you can get on with it) - the key is to do three treatments at 5 day intervals - that gets you the optimum time between brood cycles and the lifecycle of the mites and achieves the maximum kill rate.

2. You don't have inspection boards (which are notoriously inaccurate for measuring infestation) - start doing Sugar rolls - regularly - it does not hurt the bees. Invest £15 in an Abelo 3 in 1 tester which makes it very easy (video for it's use here)

3. Even if you buy in a new colony ..check them for varroa - if it's a swarm check them for varroa. You can treat with OA by sublimation as many times as you like at any time of the yeat (it's not legal but it's very effective). It does not harm the bees,

4. The time to treat is after you take your honey crop and when they are building up for winter - but - if you check regularly it will tell you if you have one of those colonies that seem to be prone to infestation and if the mite levels are getting out of hand ... treat.

5. Splitting colonies .. it's tempting but a nuc will develop into a strong colony to take into winter and may give you a crop - splitting colonies reduces their ability to develop and regardless of what it looks like in bee numbers a Nuc is rarely a candidate to split in the same season. Let it develop to a full colony and you could take a couple of frames off it and buy in a mated queen late in the season and then take a nuc through winter.

6. Varroa is a scourge on UK Beekeeping - the mites, once established, mutliply at an extraordinary rate and you have to know what is going on - they will kill a colony in no time at all as they effectively reduce the bees ability to rear sufficient bees to survive and thrive - look at your original photos - all those cells with a hole in them are failed brood - if the colony was strong enough they would be clearing those cells out - they were clearly heavily overloaded.

7. Too much space is as bad in beekeeping as too little, managing the space is key in beekeeping - too little and they will swarm, too much and they will find it harder to maintain the hive at the temperature they want. If you move a nuc into a full hive - dummy it down and just give them an extra frame or two as they need it. They will draw the frames out quicker.

8. NOW ... you have brood frames that are a very valuable commodity - WAX MOTH ? What are you doing to make sure they don't get destroyed by this other pest ?

 

[ericbeaumont]

eavy bind weed infestation in the garden , think jungle and gave it a heavy dose of roundup

I have an apiary like that; sometimes the beast creeps into hives. Unless you dig it all out (hardly practical) Roundup - glyphosate - is an effective option, but from a general environmental perspective, the worst.

Glyphosate affects honey bee memory, navigation, health and reproduction. Plenty out there for you to google; here is the tip of the the iceberg: https://www.pan-europe.info/blog/ye...ning ability and memory,toxic to bees as well.

As glyphosate has been found in beer, water, wine, breast milk and bread, the time has come for you to play your part in protecting the environment and to delete its use in your garden.
https://www.pan-uk.org/glyphosate/#:~:text=Glyphosate is found as a,breast milk in the USA.

sprayed glyphosate around the hives and never noticed any substantial/sudden mortalities afterwards

Yes, I doubt whether localised spraying contributed to the decline of CC's colonies.