Some help on what has happened here

[CaptainCymru]

Morning folks

Just had a quick nose at my hives after securing for the winter and they have been wiped out. I treated for Varroa in late September using oxalic acid in the gas vap, 3 treatments 7 days apart. Checked for stores and placed fondant on crown board. One of my hives is totally empty and the other has one frame of bees and a queen . Both hives have lots of honey . They were on double brood national . My thoughts are that they became honeybound with a late flow and swarmed into nothing however I have a brood pattern I would like you to look at . I have ordered a AFB and EFB kit to make sure . Is honey safe to eat from EFB and AFB ? I understand I have to burn the frames and scorch the boxes if it is . Some help would be good .

 

[mbc]

Morning folks

Just had a quick nose at my hives after securing for the winter and they have been wiped out. I treated for Varroa in late September using oxalic acid in the gas vap, 3 treatments 7 days apart. Checked for stores and placed fondant on crown board. One of my hives is totally empty and the other has one frame of bees and a queen . Both hives have lots of honey . They were on double brood national . My thoughts are that they became honeybound with a late flow and swarmed into nothing however I have a brood pattern I would like you to look at . I have ordered a AFB and EFB kit to make sure . Is honey safe to eat from EFB and AFB ? I understand I have to burn the frames and scorch the boxes if it is . Some help would be good .

It doesn't look like foul brood to me, looks more like a virus epidemic, those hatching bees with their tongues poking out is the classic look of varroa collapse.
Maybe too little too late with treatment or domino effect of other collapsing colonies in the area.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

looks more like a virus epidemic, those hatching bees with their tongues poking out is the classic look of varroa collapse.

foulbrood doesn't affect a colony like that anyway, but there are obvious signs of varoosis.
Vaping every seven days is too far apart and hardly going to put a dent into a colony if it is already under a heavy mite burden - what was the colony's history throughout the year?

 

[CaptainCymru]

It was a new nuc installed in May from a reputable dealer , did a walkaway split in July , both hives very strong in September .

 

[robmort]

When you did the Varroa treatment did you monitor the drop?

 

[CaptainCymru]

When you did the Varroa treatment did you monitor the drop?

No , I had solid floors . I was of the impression the cloud from the gas vap was good enough .

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It was a new nuc installed in May from a reputable dealer , did a walkaway split in July , both hives very strong in September .

after splitting in July?

 

[CaptainCymru]

after splitting in July?

Yeah

 

[JamezF]

I think you might have been mistaken about how strong the colonies were. If you split in July what was in a nuc in May, the chances of ending up with two large colonies seem pretty slim to me, yet one of them (the queenless half of the split) wouldn't have a laying queen probably until August even if you split on 1st July, which means the first of her brood wouldn't be emerging until almost September. I doubt they'd have warranted a double brood either.

James

 

[CaptainCymru]

I think you might have been mistaken about how strong the colonies were. If you split in July what was in a nuc in May, the chances of ending up with two large colonies seem pretty slim to me, yet one of them (the queenless half of the split) wouldn't have a laying queen probably until August even if you split on 1st July, which means the first of her brood wouldn't be emerging until almost September. I doubt they'd have warranted a double brood either.

James

Yeah you may be right , although upon opening every frame was full . I swapped the boxes so the flying bees returned to the newly split hive to bolster the numbers .

 

[Erichalfbee]

Just had a quick nose at my hives after securing for the winter and they have been wiped out.

Oh Hell. That’s awful. Don’t beat yourself up. We all do stuff that doesn’t work with the bees.
Yes vaping every 7 days is ineffective. I do all mine every 5 x 4
I would have left a May nuc to build, give me a little honey and increase the next year.
By the way, if you suspect AFB and if you do find it with a home test it has to be reported. You don’t deal with it yourself.

 

[CaptainCymru]

Oh Hell. That’s awful. Don’t beat yourself up. We all do stuff that doesn’t work with the bees.
Yes vaping every 7 days is ineffective. I do all mine every 5 x 4
I would have left a May nuc to build, give me a little honey and increase the next year.
By the way, if you suspect AFB and if you do find it with a home test it has to be reported. You don’t deal with it yourself.

Thanks for the condolences . Yeah lesson learned the hard way , it’s a killer now as that’s me starting again dishing out another £300 for a nuc.will see what tests bring and call bee unit if bad .

 

[Sutty]

Thanks for the condolences . Yeah lesson learned the hard way , it’s a killer now as that’s me starting again dishing out another £300 for a nuc.will see what tests bring and call bee unit if bad .

Whereabouts are you?
I may well have a spare nuc in the spring.

 

[CaptainCymru]

Whereabouts are you?
I may well have a spare nuc in the spring.

I’m down in South Devon . Thanks for that , but no problem if it’s a lot of hassle . At least I now have brood comb and 4 brood boxes for swarm traps too!

 

[ericbeaumont]

treated for Varroa in late September using oxalic acid in the gas vap

Severe varroosis is the cause of the demise of this colony; the other is not far behind.

one frame of bees and a queen

Put it in a poly nuc, treat properly (gas every 5 days, or with Apivar) and hope. Reduce the box space to two frames (one with the bees, one of stores) with PIR.

ordered a AFB and EFB kit to make sure

No need to panic; look at the symptoms of both those diseases and you will see that they have nothing in common with your photos. Look at pages 7,8 & 9 in the pdf below, which are similar to the photos.
https://www.nationalbeeunit.com/ass...HA_Managing_Varroa_2020_ELECTRONIC_ONLY-1.pdf
https://www.nationalbeeunit.com/diseases-and-pests/foulbroods-notifiable

I have to burn the frames and scorch the boxes if it is

First you must report your suspicions to the local Inspector; at this time of year it will be the RBI as the Seasonals are hibernating. You have a legal obligation to report and may not attempt to manage notifiable diseases yourself.
https://www.nationalbeeunit.com/contact-us

Is honey safe to eat from EFB and AFB ?

Yes.

did a walkaway split in July , both hives very strong in September .

Did you check that the queenless half had succeeded in raising and mating a queen? Did you look for BIAS 3-4 weeks after the split? 'Strong' is a variable word and old bees filling a box do not equate to a successful split.

 

[madasafish]

The small holes in capped brood are classic signs of a HEAVY varroa infestation. In fact so heavy , the colonies were doomed by September. The numbers literally collapse due to varroa numbers increasing as colony numbers dwindle due to less Q laying so more mites: fewer bees.
Saw a 2 brood box hive heaving with bees in August dead by end September because of that.

 

[Antipodes]

Yeah you may be right , although upon opening every frame was full . I swapped the boxes so the flying bees returned to the newly split hive to bolster the numbers .

As I understand what you are saying, every frame in each double brood hive was full of bees when you inspected in September (late September?).

One of my hives is totally empty

So they absconded from that one perhaps? No dead bees in or at the front of either hive?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As I understand what you are saying, every frame in each double brood hive was full of bees when you inspected in September (late September?).

no, he's saying that every frame was full when he inspected the original single colony before 'splitting'
Another case of the obsession with many for insisting you must have two colonies going into winter in the first year, even though common sense should tell them that one strong colony going into winter is better than two mediocre ones. Maybe suggested by

a reputable dealer

when the nuc passed hands

So they absconded from that one perhaps? No dead bees in or at the front of either hive?

why abscond? looks very much like the colony dwindled and died

 

[Antipodes]

The small holes in capped brood are classic signs of a HEAVY varroa infestation. In fact so heavy , the colonies were doomed by September. The numbers literally collapse due to varroa numbers increasing as colony numbers dwindle due to less Q laying so more mites: fewer bees.
Saw a 2 brood box hive heaving with bees in August dead by end September because of that.

When they die like that from varroa, are there any dead bees to be seen? In this case you saw recently with varroa, (with a double brood hive heaving with bees in August, and then dead in September), do you see carpets of dead bees on the floors and at the front?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

When they die like that from varroa, are there any dead bees to be seen?

not many

In this case you saw recently with varroa, (with a double brood hive heaving with bees in August, and then dead in September),

who said they'd seen that?

do you see carpets of dead bees on the floors and at the front?

no, the colony just dwindles, the mortuary bees carry on clearing out until there's to few bees to function normally.