So, what now?

[BugsInABox]

If the second (upper) brood box is empty should it be removed for the winter - to avoid isolation starvation?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If the second (upper) brood box is empty should it be removed for the winter - to avoid isolation starvation?

Yes - obviously not needed

 

[Murox]

Thank you for your detailed answer. 1am?! I have inspected every week from the start but I did not realise that the queen was running out of laying space. I am specifically looking out for that now. There is nothing in the super although mostly drawn. I can preserve that for next year. When I added the second brood box I put two frames with capped brood taken from the bottom in it. Those frames plus 2 are now ‘solid’ honey and there has never been any new brood in the upper box. (The excluder is above it.) Unless someone advises otherwise I was going to leave that as their supply for the winter. It’s OK for this year but I would hope for another year I can get the set up right to have a surplus.

You could remove and carefully store the empty drawn super now, and remove to queen excluder.
You can leave those 4 frames for a winter feed. Read up about hefting the boxes as you may need to give additional feed later.
The first year /season of a hive is really all about getting enough drawn comb and enough bees to survive the coming winter. The following season is when you might expect a surplus.

 

[fenster]

You could remove and carefully store the empty drawn super now, and remove to queen excluder.
You can leave those 4 frames for a winter feed. Read up about hefting the boxes as you may need to give additional feed later.
The first year /season of a hive is really all about getting enough drawn comb and enough bees to survive the coming winter. The following season is when you might expect a surplus.

Understood thank you.

 

[Patrick1]

I don’t consider buying in a new queen now and again a waste of time at all. How else can you get to play with different bees?

Personally I use both Buckfast and Carni, different temperaments dependent on the source they have a different attributes.
Not sure the moderators will allow the next bit but lets see
The best Buckfast queens are from Buckfast Denmark, I have been buying breeder queens from Keld for around 15 years, not the cheapest I am sure at 500 euros each but the experience is well worth it.
I have had them last me 5 years and that is after Keld has kept her for the first year to ensure quality.
Some UK breeders buy from Keld and resell the daughters, in my mind anything sub £60 is a bargain for a well bread British Buckfast queen.
On the other hand, any buckfast queen reared professionally is worth trying, Carni are a little different, this year they have been brilliant last year I had them creating queen cells all over the place, in my opinion one of the most prolific cell raisers I have ever worked with, I work with National and Langstroth, the later seems to manage large colonies better.
When all said and done every queen is different every beekeepers style is different every season in the UK different we just have to work with what we are given
The hive is so much like your family in so many ways

 

[Patrick1]

If the second (upper) brood box is empty should it be removed for the winter - to avoid isolation starvation?

If you are talking about a second brood box my suggestion would be to leave it on, feed heavily, try to fill the top box with usable invert syrups before the end of summer/Autumn, the bees will normally travel to one side of the bottom box then up into the top box for winter almost no need to inspect. they will have all the usable stores they need.
Leave the removable floor in place, put a mark on the floor indicating the uncappings check every 2-3 weeks to see the direction of travel.

 

[ericbeaumont]

If you are talking about a second brood box my suggestion would be to leave it on, feed heavily, try to fill the top box with usable invert syrups before the end of summer/Autumn

I agree, and asked fenster the question: if you were to put the bottom brood box on top and feed syrup, what would be the result? Well, the result would be as Patrick describes and there would be no worries about starvation in a single box, nor worries about space to expand next season. The only job to do would be to take out unused stores from the top box in late spring (ish), stick on a QX and super.

 

[BugsInABox]

If you are going to go down the bought in breeds route make sure you do a bit of reading about F1/Gen2nd/3rd hybrid vigour (which can result in very marked aggression) first. If you've got used to lovely gentle Buckfasts as a beginner this could be quite a shock.

 

[Swarm]

Precisely the reason I said I would never advise new beekeepers to do it. Beginners are more likely to lose swarms and queens cost money.
I have my views on imported bees and queens ( but this thread is not the place ) however the constant introduction of different types creates and perpetuates the 'stingy mongrels' that beekeepers criticise.

 

[Arfermo]

I don’t consider buying in a new queen now and again a waste of time at all. How else can you get to play with different bees?

It was surely unnecessary with a new nuc and before the first colony was secure. I too would buy in a new queen in different circumstances from the one described. Bees are not playthings either.

 

[ericbeaumont]

If you are going to go down the bought in breeds route make sure you do a bit of reading about F1/Gen2nd/3rd hybrid vigour (which can result in very marked aggression) first. If you've got used to lovely gentle Buckfasts as a beginner this could be quite a shock.

Reading stories of generational defensiveness is one thing, but from what I've heard and experienced in my area decline in temper is not the beast it's painted. For example, a beekeeper I know now running twenty or thirty started with (and uses exclusively) Ged Marshall Buckfast, and it wasn't until he got to the eighth or ninth generation that they began to get a little frisky (by his BF standards of docility).

Can't speak about F1 of specific species except in one case where I managed a hobby beekeeper's colonies one year; his parting words were I've just introduced a Carniolan queen. Local bees took one look at her and superseded to produce a monster daughter from hell; she didn't last long...

As authentic Buckfast is but a highly polished mongrel I reckon that offspring mating with local mongrels is less likely to produce nastiness. Depends on your pool, but in my area there's a lot of background Buckfast and we have reasonable stability.

No matter the source of queens or their merits, selection with a big boot is needed from time to time, which of course benefits every other beekeeper for miles around.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Bees are not playthings either.

It was a figure of speech
I do however play with the odd live varroa on the inspection board if I’m in the mood

 

[North End Bees]

a beekeeper I know now running twenty or thirty started with (and uses exclusively) Ged Marshall Buckfast, and it wasn't until he got to the eighth or ninth generation that they began to get a little frisky (by his BF standards of docility).

A commercial about three miles down the road from me has Ged Marshall Buckfasts which he replaces every alternate year (no reproduction in intervening years so his Qs are always first gen).
With all likelihood his drones are visiting the DCAs which my Qs visit so a reasonable chance any Qs I raise in my garden apiary will have their genetics.
The 3rd gen Buckfast Qs I raised this year are all really defensive. I've moved them to my out apiary before I get complaints from the neighbours. I won't be trying again with that line.

 

[Swarm]

If every beekeeper were to be honest about the temperament of his colonies and forthrightly deal with those with unacceptable traits, it would be an enormous help. Unfortunately, how often do we hear the old chestnut
"I should do something about them but they are soooo productive."
Which usually translates as I'm scared of these bees and avoid inspections, I dress up like a cocoon to take the honey off.
Share and share alike, every beekeeper in the vicinity gets to feel the pain.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Having had a colony from hell I know what you mean.
Never again. I do give them a chance in case its a one or two off but I don't hang around to re-queen. Only had to do it once since then

 

[Speybee]

Precisely the reason I said I would never advise new beekeepers to do it. Beginners are more likely to lose swarms and queens cost money.
I have my views on imported bees and queens ( but this thread is not the place ) however the constant introduction of different types creates and perpetuates the 'stingy mongrels' that beekeepers criticise.

Would different bees not increase the gene pool and prevent in breeding?

 

[fiat500bee]

Would different bees not increase the gene pool and prevent in breeding?

From what I have read, some of the bigger operations for queen production anything but a varied gene-pool. By definition, if they are breeding pure "races" or types of bees then they are in-breeding.

 

[Speybee]

From what I have read, some of the bigger operations for queen production anything but a varied gene-pool. By definition, if they are breeding pure "races" or types of bees then they are in-breeding.

I am putting my head above the parapet here as I have heard that some areas of Scotland are forbidding their membership from buying anything other than the black bee.

What I have done is that last year I requeened my 2 of my 6 colonies ( now 5 as I gave one away to a friend) with Carnolian bees, as the requeened colonies were vicious little gits and locally bred.

This year I requeened the other 3, with 2 Buckfast and 1 Carnolian.
One Buckfast introduced mid July has not come up to expectations and I am being sent a replacement in next couple of days, and will make up a Nuc.

So far I only have one hive that has lately started to be ratty, but more likely due to my rough handling as the lightweight Pawlonia wood hive was firmly glued together.
I made a complete mess of the attempted inspection as the hive began to part company from the hive stand...it’s now on 2 garden chairs.
Next inspection should be Friday ( weather dependent) and if they are ratty then next year Spring, and I will order a replacement from England while she’s going in the freezer!...as I am not prepared to put up with bad tempered bees.

 

[BugsInABox]

Would different bees not increase the gene pool and prevent in breeding?

I think it's to do with the 'pure' breeds having reduced genetic variability. A bit like some purebred dog pedigrees this results in some predictable traits such as behaviour. But then these pure breeds do mix with other breeds resulting in a vigorous mongrel - this vigor, in bees, can be expressed as aggression (along with possibly useful traits such as increased productivity and potentially disease resistance). Someone will point out that Buckfasts are not pure bred - but the same outcome is reported by many.

 

[BugsInABox]

What I have done is that last year I requeened my 2 of my 6 colonies ( now 5 as I gave one away to a friend) with Carnolian bees, as the requeened colonies were vicious little gits and locally bred.

This year I requeened the other 3, with 2 Buckfast and 1 Carnolian.

So far I only have one hive that has lately started to be ratty,

Though the logic being discussed here would be that the rattiness will only start in your next (or maybe subsequent) generation of queens. (Forcing you to keep buying in to avoid this).