Should we leave varroa board under the Mesh Floor in winter?

[JamezF]

Fact my poly nucs build up better when the floor is closed of in spring.
I have both solid floors and OMFs on my cedar single and double brood.
My hear say would be in my location( hills) solid floors would be better.
All my OMF floors have inspection boards in all winter.
Give it a few more years and I'll have better results.

I'm in a fairly exposed site too, on top of a hill near the edge of Exmoor, hence my particular interest in how they might prefer to be kept.

James

 

[Curly green finger's]

I'm in a fairly exposed site too, on top of a hill near the edge of Exmoor, hence my particular interest in how they might prefer to be kept.

James

That's interesting James some of ours are in very exposed positions at 475 metres imo they benefit from the buffer from the wind.
Also notice more activities when the floor is closed of on the nucs.

 

[Do224]

. Why, specifically, is bottom ventilation the secret to good over-wintering?

Likewise, I really appreciate it when people explain the reasoning behind the advice they’re giving.

 

[user 20297]

Likewise, I really appreciate it when people explain the reasoning behind the advice they’re giving.

Same here; There are some technical explanations, recently linked to above, which you may have missed, which may go some way towards explaining it: Should we leave varroa board under the Mesh Floor in winter?
I know there is no oblication on anyone to explain it in detail, but generally, I think you're expected to trust in the wisdom of experience of some seasoned beekeepers.
The majority of respondents say that either way, it makes no difference.

 

[Poly Hive]

The reason I said that people should read the Mobus on Wintering article has nothing to do with viewing numbers. It costs me the same to run the site regardless of footfall as I run no advertising.

No it's because so few understand the relationship between bottom ventilation and top insulation. And Mobus people was the man who did the research. Yes a few years old now but these articles were peer reviewed and published in the ABJ. I have no idea what hoops have to be jumped now to have material published in that journal but certainly back then it was pretty serious stuff. Now you can take the time to read it or not your choice but to debate a topic on which there is proper research with out knowing about it is a bit pointless.

PH

 

[Boston Bees]

The majority of respondents say that either way, it makes no difference.

Seems simple advice. So why the headbanging emoji?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Used both OMF and solid floors and not really noticed much difference. I think the important things to remember is.
No gaping holes in crownboards
No roof vents
No matchsticks under the crownboards
And insulation above crownboards

 

[Boston Bees]

The reason I said that people should read the Mobus on Wintering article has nothing to do with viewing numbers. It costs me the same to run the site regardless of footfall as I run no advertising.

No it's because so few understand the relationship between bottom ventilation and top insulation. And Mobus people was the man who did the research. Yes a few years old now but these articles were peer reviewed and published in the ABJ. I have no idea what hoops have to be jumped now to have material published in that journal but certainly back then it was pretty serious stuff. Now you can take the time to read it or not your choice but to debate a topic on which there is proper research with out knowing about it is a bit pointless.

PH

If anyone wants to read the Mobus articles they are much better viewed in their original form, where the diagrams make some sense, and the text is properly formatted. You can link to these directly in future if you wish, given that links to your blog are of no relevance to you:

Mobus-1998-brood-rearing-in-winter-cluster.pdf (scientificbeekeeping.com)

and

Mobus-1998-winter-cluster-part-2.pdf (scientificbeekeeping.com)

I have read these a couple of times in the past and found them interesting (the rebuttal of the old cliche that "the best insulation for bees is bees" is worth reading), but they certainly don't directly relate to the question posed in the title of this thread.

 

[user 20297]

Seems simple advice. So why the headbanging emoji?

...because, in context, it was asked......

......... Why, specifically, is bottom ventilation the secret to good over-wintering?
James

...and someone even answered with the currently accepted view that, "Perhaps it would be better to say that top ventilation is the secret to bad overwintering."

I don't think anyone is entitled to an answer and neither am I criticising any answer that anyone offers. But some people do seem to think that it does matter whether the tray is in or out in winter, but the evidence always appears to be anecdotal.

 

[Boston Bees]

...because, in context, it was asked......


...and someone even answered with the currently accepted view that, "Perhaps it would be better to say that top ventilation is the secret to bad overwintering."

I don't think anyone is entitled to an answer and neither am I criticising any answer that anyone offers. But some people do seem to think that it does matter whether the tray is in or out in winter, but the evidence always appears to be anecdotal.

Weeeeellllll ...

To be fair, there seem to be two questions being asked here, and they are being conflated in the minds of at least some of the "askers"

a) Is bottom ventilation or top ventilation best
b) should the tray be in or out in winter (and indeed, is a mesh or solid floor best)

These are separate questions. You can perfectly well have bottom-only ventilation with the varroa tray in. Air gets in the door after all, and also around the edges of the varroa tray to some extent.

EDIT: My answers would be

a) Bottom, clearly, as I doubt living in a vertical draught is helpful for bees
b) Doesn't matter, based on the ad-hoc experience of several large-scale beekeepers that I have seen quoted, and also on my gut feel, which is that as long as the top of the hive is snug, the presence or absence of an open varroa mesh seems unlikely to make that much different.

 

[JamezF]

I know there is no oblication on anyone to explain it in detail, but generally, I think you're expected to trust in the wisdom of experience of some seasoned beekeepers.

If I did that for some then I'd be putting matchsticks under the crown board...

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

If I did that for some then I'd be putting matchsticks under the crown board...

James

It’s ok. Matchsticks aren’t allowed here.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

generally, I think you're expected to trust in the wisdom of experience of some seasoned beekeepers.

With the emphasis on the word SOME

 

[JamezF]

With the emphasis on the word SOME

Absolutely so. And whilst I respect the opinions of those who don't, perhaps because my background is science and engineering, I personally find it much easier to make a judgement on which are the some to whom attention should be paid when they "show their working", as my teachers used to say in school.

James

 

[JamezF]

If anyone wants to read the Mobus articles they are much better viewed in their original form, where the diagrams make some sense, and the text is properly formatted. You can link to these directly in future if you wish, given that links to your blog are of no relevance to you:

Mobus-1998-brood-rearing-in-winter-cluster.pdf (scientificbeekeeping.com)

and

Mobus-1998-winter-cluster-part-2.pdf (scientificbeekeeping.com)

I have read these a couple of times in the past and found them interesting (the rebuttal of the old cliche that "the best insulation for bees is bees" is worth reading), but they certainly don't directly relate to the question posed in the title of this thread.

Thank you for the links. I have put them behind my ear to read later. Feeling a bit befuddled this evening having done a 520-mile round trip to Lancaster today to take my son back to uni. Getting around Birmingham is tedious, but at this moment I swear nothing major would be lost if Liverpool and Manchester were nuked from orbit.

James

 

[user 20297]

With the emphasis on the word SOME

I approve of your edit as there was an intended tone of sarcasm in my voice.
But specifically with regard to the "Yes/No" issue of the retention of the inspection board, it increasingly looks likely that you just have to believe one of three factions of beekepers' opinions on this matter. I'm not sure that there is any science-based evidence which is conclusive as regards shove it in, take it out or it matters not which you do with it.....(the inspection board , that is. )

 

[pargyle]

If anyone wants to read the Mobus articles they are much better viewed in their original form, where the diagrams make some sense, and the text is properly formatted. You can link to these directly in future if you wish, given that links to your blog are of no relevance to you:

Mobus-1998-brood-rearing-in-winter-cluster.pdf (scientificbeekeeping.com)

and

Mobus-1998-winter-cluster-part-2.pdf (scientificbeekeeping.com)

I have read these a couple of times in the past and found them interesting (the rebuttal of the old cliche that "the best insulation for bees is bees" is worth reading), but they certainly don't directly relate to the question posed in the title of this thread.

Probably nicked the ideas from Bill Bielby who, in 1977 said in his book Home Honey Production ' Page 46/48 .. " For most economical wintering, hives should be highly insulated and completely draughtproof."
.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I approve of your edit as there was an intended tone of sarcasm in my voice.
But specifically with regard to the "Yes/No" issue of the retention of the inspection board, it increasingly looks likely that you just have to believe one of three factions of beekepers' opinions on this matter. I'm not sure that there is any science-based evidence which is conclusive as regards shove it in, take it out or it matters not which you do.....(the inspection board , that is. )

My view is, if you believe you need an OMF, keep it open throughout the year as was it's intention when first designed. if you think you need to keep the inspection board in over winter, just use a bloody solid floor.

 

[Do224]

No roof vents

Why do manufacturers put vents in the roof...are they important for the summer?

 

[Erichalfbee]

No. There’s no connection between the bees and the roof is there?
The few wooden roofs I have are filled with insulation anyway