Should I worry ....??

[No Neo Nics]

I had a look into a hive yesterday. The colony in the brood is small - about 7 frames. There are only 3 or 4 frames in the super.

On having a look at a couple of these frames in the super I saw larvae - so there must be a queen.

Between the 2 is the queen excluder.

So, what has happened and why?

Also, what shall I do?

I have thought about simply taking the queen excluder out, and having a 'brood and a half'.

I've also thought about simply moving the super frames with larvae in down into the brood chamber.

What do you reckon? What would you do? Thanks.

 

[drex]

Is the brood. Capped and is it worker brood? If so, queen has gotten above the excluder.
I only add a super when the bees are covering 8 frames in my nationals.
Suggest you look for the queen and pop her below the excluder, leave the brood in the super frames above the excluder, and let it emerge, and the bees will fill those cells with honey ( some people will not like that idea of honey from cells that has contained brood, but I have no problem with it) .
If not confident at finding the queen, as a last resort you could just remove the excluder, put an empty box on top of the brood, and shake all the bees out of the super into the empty box. They will quickly run down into the brood chamber. Remove the empty box. Replace QX and super.

 

[No Neo Nics]

Hey!! Thank you very much for your quick advice ..... I wonder how the queen got upstairs?

Ok that's one thing I've done 'wrong' ...I added a super too soon.

 

[oliver90owner]

All assuming there is a queen in residence! Proper laying pattern? Worker brood? Not laying workers?

If all is OK in respect of the above, you may have made a mistake during inspection, the excluder may be faulty or the queen may be a small one. Not good if it is a small scrub queen.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I had a look into a hive yesterday. The colony in the brood is small - about 7 frames. There are only 3 or 4 frames in the super.

On having a look at a couple of these frames in the super I saw larvae - so there must be a queen.

Between the 2 is the queen excluder.

So, what has happened and why?

Also, what shall I do?

I have thought about simply taking the queen excluder out, and having a 'brood and a half'.

I've also thought about simply moving the super frames with larvae in down into the brood chamber.

What do you reckon? What would you do? Thanks.

Is the brood box fully drawn or is there still unused space? Perhaps the super went on a bit early in the development of the hive.
Would you recognise the difference in the egg laying characteristics of a "normal" queen and egg laying workers that RAB mentioned?
If the super does have egg laying workers it suggests the queen pheromone is absent or weak in the super and it may be the brood box is heading the same way, particularly as your post suggests weak expansion of the colony possibly due to a sub standard or failing queen.
However I would start by carefully checking the queen excluder for defect. Even one damaged slot could result in the queen accessing the super to lay.
If you are sure the qe is good and you are sure the brood in the super is being capped as worker brood then you maybe did accidentally let the queen into the super during manipulation. If this is the case you could simply brush every bee (gently) off the super frames into the brood box, refit the qe and replace the super. The brood will emerge in due course, the emerged new bees will join the colony and life in the hive will return to normal (whatever "normal" is to a bee)
If the original queen is weak or failing or has been lost then requeening is required. There are plenty of posts in here about the procedure as well as consideration of the risks presented by laying workers to a new queen or even a poorly performing resident queen in hiding.
Was the queen marked and when did you last see her?

 

[No Neo Nics]

Thank you Gilberdyke J. A very helpful reply. No ... the BB is not fully drawn, so I suspect I put a super on too soon.

No, I wouldn't recognise the egg laying characteristics of a normal queen as opposed to the RAB.

I will follow your advice, thank you. I feel I may end up putting the super frames with eggs in them into the brood box. I know they will expand it to the size of a brood frame, but I'm not fussed about that. Or should I be?

No, the original queen was not marked, and I am rubbish at spotting queens - so I have no idea when I last saw her, if ever!!?? It was a small colony I collected last year, and I was pleased that it survived the winter.

Thanks again.

 

[pargyle]

I run my hives without a queen excluder ...occasionally you will get a small patch or two of brood in a super but it emerges and they fill the cells with honey - No problem - it's what they do in the wild. QE's are only for the convenience of the beekeeper - they do nothing for the bees. I would take the QE out and stop worrying where the queen is - she's there somewhere I'll bet.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I run my hives without a queen excluder ...occasionally you will get a small patch or two of brood in a super but it emerges and they fill the cells with honey - No problem - it's what they do in the wild. QE's are only for the convenience of the beekeeper - they do nothing for the bees. I would take the QE out and stop worrying where the queen is - she's there somewhere I'll bet.

What do you do though if you have your supers drawn out to 10 frames? I had a queen lay half a super of drone before I realised what was going on

 

[Beefriendly]

I run my hives without a queen excluder ...occasionally you will get a small patch or two of brood in a super but it emerges and they fill the cells with honey - No problem -

I figure it depends a bit on the strain of bee you keep and/or how fecund the queens are. Might work for local bees, but tried it several times with Buckfast and each time the queens lay a plume of brood throughout every super. Not what I was hoping for. Particularly in spring when you need to get that honey off before it sets. Made a right mess of things!
Only way I could see it working for me would be to use brood boxes as supers so all box sizes are the same and move full honey frames up and frames with brood down.....more work!

 

[pargyle]

What do you do though if you have your supers drawn out to 10 frames? I had a queen lay half a super of drone before I realised what was going on

I figure it depends a bit on the strain of bee you keep and/or how fecund the queens are. Might work for local bees, but tried it several times with Buckfast and each time the queens lay a plume of brood throughout every super. Not what I was hoping for. Particularly in spring when you need to get that honey off before it sets. Made a right mess of things!
Only way I could see it working for me would be to use brood boxes as supers so all box sizes are the same and move full honey frames up and frames with brood down.....more work!

Local mongrels ...14 x 12 brood box .... I've not had a queen lay higher than the first super and even then it has only been a relatively small amount and usually in newly drawn wax - it doesn't seem to happen as much with drawn frames. I don't super until there are at least 7 or 8 frames of brood and start them off with a few drawn frames mixed in with undrawn ones (bear in mind I'm foundationless as well).

I do think it very much depends on the strain of bees and the time in the season/available forage ... and what the bees want at that particular moment in time. It does not unduly bother me - they tend to sort things out when it happens. I usually extract quite late in the season and I don't have a problem with rape (brood amongst rape WOULD be annoying - and possibly heather - but again, I don't take my bees to the heather). By the time I extract the frames are always honey.

 

[Beefriendly]

Perhaps not good general advice to not use QX?
Too many circumstances where itcan cause problems.

 

[Poly Hive]

Also not good to say small queens are no good.

I have seem massive ones that were totally useless and slim lassies that could and did slide through the excluder and lay like trains in the supers because the single BB was stuffed full of brood.

Small does not = bad.

Size in queens does not matter, performance does.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

I didn't say that. I specifically wrote "small scrub queen" meaning exactly that. The beekeeper will (or likely should) know if the queen was sub-standard from the off. Runts, from emergency cells in small splits/colonies are often not long-lived. All good queens fail eventually - well all mine did, or would have!

 

[Gilberdyke John]

No, I wouldn't recognise the egg laying characteristics of a normal queen.

Sorry for the delay in replying but "in general" laying workers lay haphazard patterns with eggs stuck to the side of cells because they have shorter abdomen than the queen who can deposit her egg at the bottom of the cell where it attaches end on thus giving just laid eggs a dot like appearance. The egg sags over sideways and appears as a short thread before it hatches.
You may find a magnifying glass helpful until you get your eye in plus a uv torch makes white stand out

 

[Beefriendly]

Sorry for the delay in replying but "in general" laying workers lay haphazard patterns with eggs stuck to the side of cells because they have shorter abdomen than the queen who can deposit her egg at the bottom of the cell where it attaches end on thus giving just laid eggs a dot like appearance.

Laying workers can lay eggs in the bottom of cells...just look at the picture Millet posted ( and yes I know you said "in general"....
https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40118.
It might be more correct to say that if eggs are stuck to the sides it is likely to be laying workers.....although I have seen new queens do this as they begin their egg laying career.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Laying workers can lay eggs in the bottom of cells...just look at the picture Millet posted ( and yes I know you said "in general"....
https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40118.
It might be more correct to say that if eggs are stuck to the sides it is likely to be laying workers.....although I have seen new queens do this as they begin their egg laying career.

Yup that's why I said in general! because there are exceptions.

 

[Beefriendly]

So perhaps better not to say that? It gives the impression it's the norm. My experience is it isn't......but if only on the side indicative

 

[Gilberdyke John]

So perhaps better not to say that? It gives the impression it's the norm. My experience is it isn't......but if only on the side indicative

I've seen laying worker eggs stuck to the sides of cells. I've seen new queens lay multiple eggs when they begin to lay.I've never seen the splattering of eggs on the bottom of the cell that Millet suffered, however thank you for a wonderful lesson in pedantry.

 

[Beefriendly]

I've seen laying worker eggs stuck to the sides of cells. I've seen new queens lay multiple eggs when they begin to lay.I've never seen the splattering of eggs on the bottom of the cell that Millet suffered, however thank you for a wonderful lesson in pedantry.

My pleasure. Any time you you need your pedants brushing up I'm your man