Shook swarm V Bailey change

[martin.henwood]

Time, I think, for my bees to be moved onto new foundation.

So, do I shook swarm them, or do a Bailey change.

The objectives are: to reduce the veroa and any other decease. And to discourage swarming later in the spring.

 

[Finman]

Time, I think, for my bees to be moved onto new foundation.

So, do I shook swarm them, or do a Bailey change.

The objectives are: to reduce the veroa and any other decease. And to discourage swarming later in the spring.

You spoil your honey yield too.
How the operation affect on swarming is that colony is so weak that it cannot swarm. It is not either to make normal yield either. But they will swarm later.

Shook swarm is used only against AFB. It is not varroa treatment. Then you are worse disease than varroa.

 

[Erichalfbee]

When you get swarm cells, AS (Artificially Swarm) the colony with a method such as Pagden. That will give you a box of newly drawn brood frames. Re-unite before the honey flow. No brood or crop lost.

 

[Finman]

When you get swarm cells, AS (Artificially Swarm) the colony with a method such as Pagden.

Pagden is Brittish (national) name to Demaree method. Procedure is very same.

 

[REDWOOD]

Comb management, change 3 or 4 every year.
Varroa, treat

If for some reason you have a box of dirty black comb then I would prefer a Baileys comb change, less stressful than shaking, but that's me.

Swarm prevention; what ever takes your fancy, I prefer the pagden.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Pagden is Brittish (national) name to Demaree method. Procedure is very same.

No it's not - two different methods devised by two different men in two different continents, one to avoid the building of queen cells and one to avoid losing a swarm after queen cells are found.
The Pagden method was first published in 1870 in the UK as a method of skep swarm control and relied on encouraging the flying bees to move into a new skep at the old location, modified for frame hives it is conducted laterally, requires two hives, side by side and moving queen into new hive at old location and moving the old hive with queen cells to one side.
George Demarree presented his system in 1865, involves one hive but two brood boxes and is conducted vertically, and is operated before any queen cells are formed, having the queen in the bottom box and the brood in the top box separqated by two or more supers - it's a rolling programme entailing regular movement of brood to the top box and destruction of queen cells as they are formed

 

[Floyd]

I did a shook swarm last season just to try it out as the queen had lost her vigour(or so I thought) and the frames were needing changed due to age and also had alot of brace comb between some of the newerframes as I had screwed up the frame spacing by leaving out the dummy board,which left hole which were relaced by quite a large amount of Drone brood cells. I moved the two frames with brood over to another hive.

They drew out the foundation faster and overmultiple frames at once. And also drew out the foundation in a very even manner. There was a good flow on at the time but i did feed just in case. As for the queen which I had marked for replacement. She layed up 8 frames in just over a week.

So I would definatly use it again, If a hive was on a brood break and certainly learnt a lesson not to give up on a queen too early as I got a full super of heather honey some on undrawn foundation from this hive.

 

[Finman]

No it's not - two different methods devised by two different men in two different continents, one to avoid the building of queen cells and one to avoid losing a swarm after queen cells are found.
The Pagden method was first published in 1870 in the UK as a method of skep swarm control and relied on encouraging the flying bees to move into a new skep at the old location, modified for frame hives it is conducted laterally, requires two hives, side by side and moving queen into new hive at old location and moving the old hive with queen cells to one side.
George Demarree presented his system in 1865, involves one hive but two brood boxes and is conducted vertically, and is operated before any queen cells are formed, having the queen in the bottom box and the brood in the top box separqated by two or more supers - it's a rolling programme entailing regular movement of brood to the top box and destruction of queen cells as they are formed

At least I may do Demaree in many way. Essential is that queen and brood are separated and bees feel that they are swarmed.

. Padgen did not have movable frames, but modern Padgen starts his system with moving frames. . But what ever.

 

[Finman]

Comb management, change 3 or 4 every year.
Varroa, treat
.

I let hive to draw every year 2-3 boxes foundations. I take a comb away when day light does not come through.
Darkening is not only reason to take frames off. Lots of frames will be spoiled during winter. In extracting too.

Most valuable in bee nursing are brood in spring.
Another thing is to force the bees to draw new combs when time is least favorable.

 

[itma]

Time, I think, for my bees to be moved onto new foundation.

So, do I shook swarm them, or do a Bailey change.

The objectives are: to reduce the veroa and any other decease. And to discourage swarming later in the spring.

If you mean "this season" that is your call.

But if you mean "this week" or even (I'd suggest) "this month" - I think you are premature.

A "shook swarm" is a manipulation to be performed on a strong colony, where lots of bees can build comb quickly.
Bailey's method (particularly when a "comb change" - ie putting in sterilised drawn comb) is something that can be done as a 'treatment' for a weak colony. But if onto foundation, it too demands lots of bee-power.



The hobbyist also has the additional option of doing a progressive 'rolling' replacement - removing un-utilised old brood combs while they are empty after winter, and replacing them with strategically-placed foundation. Then other old combs can be gradually 'rotated' to the outside and withdrawn. This requires too much attention for the large-scale beek, and probably too much observation and reaction for the novice, but it certainly is another possible means of comb renewal.



Incidentally, a standard-colour queen-marking pen is a simple means of marking frames so that one can see at a glance what year they date from.


/// A 'Bailey' won't reduce varroa. Neither of the methods are really swarm control measures.

 

[clv101]

Incidentally, a standard-colour queen-marking pen is a simple means of marking frames so that one can see at a glance what year they date from.

Yes, all our frames get a coloured dot to track their year of introduction.

 

[Bosleeu]

Bailey.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Shook swarm is used only against AFB. It is not varroa treatment. Then you are worse disease than varroa.

Sorry Finman, you didn't notice your own typo. Shook swarm is used against EFB.

If a colony has AFB it is destroyed.

 

[Finman]

.
I use combs in brood boxes and in supers. I do not have excluder.

Once I made an mistake when I moved light color combs into the centre of brood boxes. The came a day when my all combs were dark and out of day.

Since that I move older combs in the centre of brood area, and when they are too old, I move them up to supers that bees emerge out and cells are filled with honey. Frame moving is continuous. After e xtracting I take dark combs off.

If the old comb has much pollen, I put it into between brood frames. Soon pollen is away and comb is full of brood. Again, I lift the comb up and after a month it is filled with honey.

Combs are expencive. Every foundation comb needs 800 g honey to be drawn. Without foundation every comb needs 1,5 kg honey.

 

[Finman]

.
One swarm preventing method

When the colony is strong enough, put all brood frames and pollen frames over excluder. Then put foundation box under brood box and move the queen into foundation box. Bees are forged to draw new foundations.

This method is Common in Australia and in USA.
But do it before the hive has swarming fever and queen cells. If colony has swarming fever, it will not draw added foundations.

 

[REDWOOD]

Yes, all our frames get a coloured dot to track their year of introduction.

No need to do that, if they look bad just progressively work them to the out side and remove, some combs will be used more than others throwing the timed frame out of the window

 

[clv101]

No need to do that, if they look bad just progressively work them to the out side and remove, some combs will be used more than others throwing the timed frame out of the window

Yeah, for sure. I don't just go by the age of the frame! I just like that extra information. It's also interesting to see how yellow dotted frames have moved around the apiary as a result of splits test frames etc.

 

[itma]

...
Shook swarm is used only against AFB. It is not varroa treatment. Then you are worse disease than varroa.

Actually, it can be.

To quote Dave Cushman (and it is DC not RP)

It has become a useful manipulation where a colony is heavily infected with varroa

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/shookswarm.html

 

[Finman]

Sorry Finman, you didn't notice your own typo. Shook swarm is used against EFB.

If a colony has AFB it is destroyed.

In UK, I know..

If you read university advices (maarec), how to cure EFB, change the genepool of your beestock and you get rid off EFB.

In many countries AFB is handled by shaking colony to foundations.

You have your orders, but you have more DIY how to handle bee diseases. There are 34 pest and diseases in bees. Shake bees !

 

[Finman]

Actually, it can be.

To quote Dave Cushman (and it is DC not RP) http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/shookswarm.html

Shook swarm against varroa makes no sense. It is then better take broof off.

i have adviced too in this forum, that if varroa load is heavy, take brood frames off and give OA trickling. No idea to wait 4 weeks that varroa emerge out with new bees and then kill mites.

BUT NORMALLY, in beekeeping, the habit is to identyfy first, what is the disease, you are going to heal.
It does not go that way, that you start to shake your bees just when some one says so. But your bees, not mine.

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