Scum/curds floating on honey buckets. Why?

[Arfermo]

Water content of the honey beneath = 19.5% (higher than ideal but similar to many previous).

Therein lies the problem probably - an invitation to ferment. Should not be sold if above 18% according to the regs?

 

[Newbeeneil]

Therein lies the problem probably - an invitation to ferment. Should not be sold if above 18% according to the regs?

20% in the Honey regs. 23% for heather honey.

 

[Prof]

I'm down to my last two 30 lb honey buckets, extracted on 22June 2020 and set hard. Probably the remains of OSR plus May/June forage.They've been in my warming cabinet @ 35C for 48 hours. This morning I prepared to stir with an attachment in my drill. The problem was that both buckets had a thick layer of viscous pale curds which I spooned off (see pic). Water content of the honey beneath = 19.5% (higher than ideal but similar to many previous).
Why the curds (which I don't want to jar)? Is it because I removed the lids from the buckets while in the cabinet? Some other reason (I have had this problem intermittently before)?
Grateful for your thoughts.

Might it also in part be activation of glucose oxidase because of the water content? Produces hydrogen peroxide and bubbling?

 

[beeno]

OSR honey is known to ferment. The glucose content of OSR honey is far greater than the fructose content. Thus it crystallises very quickly as we all know. In doing so it releases water in the top layer of the bucket enabling localised fermentation to commence in that top layer. This may occur despite the initial water content of the whole bucket being 17% or below. It happened to me once when I did not put the lid back properly after inspecting the honey and it was not OSR. Fermented honey tastes alcoholic to me and I did not want to sell it even though someone told me that I could. But you have to heat it to stop the fermentation. I realise that in stirring the honey in the bucket whilst liquifying it you may get air bubbles, but shirley not to that extent? A taste check should confirm whether the honey is fermented or not.

 

[Amari]

OSR honey is known to ferment. The glucose content of OSR honey is far greater than the fructose content. Thus it crystallises very quickly as we all know. In doing so it releases water in the top layer of the bucket enabling localised fermentation to commence in that top layer. This may occur despite the initial water content of the whole bucket being 17% or below. It happened to me once when I did not put the lid back properly after inspecting the honey and it was not OSR. Fermented honey tastes alcoholic to me and I did not want to sell it even though someone told me that I could. But you have to heat it to stop the fermentation. I realise that in stirring the honey in the bucket whilst liquifying it you may get air bubbles, but shirley not to that extent? A taste check should confirm whether the honey is fermented or not.

Thanks Beeno. The honey tastes good but the 'mousse' is all in the tray on the top of one of my hives. I'll have to visit tomorrow and see if there's enough remaining to taste....

 

[Amari]

Thanks everyone for these helpful replies.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Thanks for the link Parsonage and for all the replies above. Relieved to read that I'm not alone... I've put the tray in the pic atop one of my hives and expect it'll be all gone tomorrow.

Are you saying you're open feeding with all the risks that introduces?

 

[Arfermo]

20% in the Honey regs. 23% for heather honey.

Thanks for the correction. But best honey is recommended to be sold at 18%

 

[Newbeeneil]

Thanks for the correction. But best honey is recommended to be sold at 18%

I agree, but your comment was "Should not be sold if above 18% according to the regs?" not " best honey is recommended to be sold at 18%"

 

[beeno]

Thanks for the correction. But best honey is recommended to be sold at 18%

I have heard that if you want to sell your honey wholesale to a bottler they don't accept it over 18%

 

[beeno]

Thanks Beeno. The honey tastes good but the 'mousse' is all in the tray on the top of one of my hives. I'll have to visit tomorrow and see if there's enough remaining to taste....

I would not bother to taste the mousse. Maybe you just stirred a lot of air in?

 

[WoodenBeam]

I agree, but your comment was "Should not be sold if above 18% according to the regs?" not " best honey is recommended to be sold at 18%"

I must say all of this talk about moisture content and what should / shouldn’t be done bla bla bla relies on your cheap Chinese imported refractometer actually being accurate and read correctly.
Surely far simpler to let the bees tell you.............take frame out and if you have to remove the cappings prior to spinning out it’s ready. Unless you're selling in bulk and need to supply the details to a purchaser or spinning nectar and then drying out why do you need worry?

Newbeeneil this isn’t aimed at you I just nicked your comment, or anyone else really - just an observation that there’s a lot of talk about moisture content

 

[Amari]

Are you saying you're open feeding with all the risks that introduces?

I would not bother to taste the mousse. Maybe you just stirred a lot of air in?

No, GJ: I'm not that green!
Beeno: but I just have! I'd placed the tray yesterday on the CB (open feed hole) with several strips of wood resting on the mousse. Adjacent is half a block of Nektapoll. Today the bees were munching the Nektapoll but not a bee on the much softer mousse which surprised me. Taste? - just like any soft set honey.
The mousse was c. 4mm thick on the surface of the warmed honey before I did my first stir.

 

[WoodenBeam]

So even the bees didn’t like Honey mousse

 

[Parsonage Bees]

No, GJ: I'm not that green!
Beeno: but I just have! I'd placed the tray yesterday on the CB (open feed hole) with several strips of wood resting on the mousse. Adjacent is half a block of Nektapoll. Today the bees were munching the Nektapoll but not a bee on the much softer mousse which surprised me.

That's a shame, I was hoping the bees would have sucked out any honey in it and left behind wax? or pollen? and we'd have an answer.
I agree, it doesn't taste fermented.

This YouTube video is interesting by US honey processor Bob Binnie : with his Bee Culture article : Processing Honey: A Closer Look | Bee Culture

You need a fahrenheit to celsius table while you listen to it. And he's talking mostly about American honey sources. And it doesn't answer your question of what this foam is. My bet is, like 'Prof' above, some enzyme reaction producing bubbles around pollen grains maybe.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Newbeeneil this isn’t aimed at you I just nicked your comment, or anyone else really - just an observation that there’s a lot of talk about moisture content

Of course there is a lot about moisture content because that is what the Honey regulations base their limits on.

I have had uncapped honey with a M/c of 15% and capped honey at 19% so just relying on whether it's capped or not might not be the best option.
Maybe you will say it's that cheap refractometer I'm using but I recalibrate at every extraction and jarring so I'm pretty sure they are pretty accurate readings.

 

[WoodenBeam]

Sorting a few buckets yesterday so took a couple of piccies.

Set bucket including ‘scum/mousse/bubbles/debris’. On extracting we coarse filter (twin S/Steel mesh sieve but only the larger sieve used) straight into buckets.

Partially removed. Its quite apparent when removing what’s bubbles and what’s Honey - different texture.

The cream of the crop? Or mousse in this case? Certainly raw
We remove this layer prior to warming and filtering as the filter can clog with debris and slow things up causing hassle. Don’t know if this could be the source of your curds Amari?
Crop in the photo was extracted late May 2020, set solid and we are in a **** area.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Sorting a few buckets yesterday so took a couple of piccies.
View attachment 24676
Set bucket including ‘scum/mousse/bubbles/debris’. On extracting we coarse filter (twin S/Steel mesh sieve but only the larger sieve used) straight into buckets.
View attachment 24677
Partially removed. Its quite apparent when removing what’s bubbles and what’s Honey - different texture.
View attachment 24678
The cream of the crop? Or mousse in this case? Certainly raw
We remove this layer prior to warming and filtering as the filter can clog with debris and slow things up causing hassle. Don’t know if this could be the source of your curds Amari?
Crop in the photo was extracted late May 2020, set solid and we are in a **** area.

Out of interest what time and temps are you using to warm your honey up for jarring?

Even honey extracted on the 22nd of August has osr in it.

Heres a statement : ( bees will reuse osr honey)
Nice photos.

 

[Murox]

Sorting a few buckets yesterday so took a couple of piccies.
View attachment 24676
Set bucket including ‘scum/mousse/bubbles/debris’. On extracting we coarse filter (twin S/Steel mesh sieve but only the larger sieve used) straight into buckets.
View attachment 24677
Partially removed. Its quite apparent when removing what’s bubbles and what’s Honey - different texture.
View attachment 24678
The cream of the crop? Or mousse in this case? Certainly raw
We remove this layer prior to warming and filtering as the filter can clog with debris and slow things up causing hassle. Don’t know if this could be the source of your curds Amari?
Crop in the photo was extracted late May 2020, set solid and we are in a **** area.

Great educative value pictures. thanks for posting - never seen such "mouse" before in honey.

 

[WoodenBeam]

Out of interest what time and temps are you using to warm your honey up for jarring?
48 degrees, typically over a 24hr period, tub then stirred to access, may then go back in for a further 12ish hours.

Heres a statement : ( bees will reuse osr honey)
Yep, quite agree, Honeys Honey after all , but when something is easier to use, they will I think.