Rural or urban

[SimonP]

There has been an increased trend in urban beekeeping. What are peoples opinion on this, do people think that the urban environment is fit for the keeping of bees?

 

[SimonP]

Also, has anyone experienced any particualr problems with keeping bees in an urban environment?

 

[Chris B]

I think a good number of people have proved that it is.

I would be asking "are the bees fit for an urban environment"? I wonder how long before we hear about a business interuption case in London's square mile due to nasty or swarmy bees. Keeping bees in close proximity to lots of people requires a bit of extra care.

 

[SimonP]

I would agree, and with more and more business renting out their roof to beekeepers in London, it's only a matter of time. However I wonder how we can actually provide this extra care. Good beekeeping practice is very much a personal opinion. Take swarming for example, I've spoken to many people who say it's natural and that it should be allowed to occure whilst I've also spoken to many people on the otherside of the fence with the opposite opinion. We also know that bees will swarm if they want to swarm, so how do we ensure the safety of the general public and should people in the work environment be subjected to the risk?

 

[Nose Ma]

Start your keyboards…

Many will say “NO”, and many will say “YES”. Stand by for some fireworks.

It’s difficult. Bees are funny. They can sting, and they do sting. That makes them dangerous. Nobody would contemplate keeping wasps or hornets in an urban environment, despite the decline in hornet numbers.

Some bees are placid, and will leave people alone. Others are not. In an out apiary the latter are not too much of a problem, in a city street, could be a different matter. A colony in one year can turn nasty in the next, so even getting “placid bees” is not a solution. Likewise with swarming, it’s pretty scary if you don’t know what’s happening, and I could see a city street full of panicking people stabbing each other with epipens should one happen there. I am amazed at how many people who say to me, having learnt I keep bees that their sister/aunt/uncle/wife etc is allergic to bee stings and has to carry an epipen around. Aside from making me wonder how we got through the middle ages (and indeed why no kids I ever heard of at my whole series of schools ever had a nut or sting allergy. Come to that, why is a peanut allergy a nut allergy? I thought it was a legume) I worry about doctors handing the things out just to get rid of the patient. The patient then carries it, and is likely to do something dumb and administer it where it is not required. Sorry, off on a tangent there.

Having said that, I don’t recall seeing any problems with the hives on the roofs in Paris, or on Fortnum and Masons in London. Our firm is contemplating putting a hive or two on the roof (mostly for “green publicity” I think). They won’t ask anyone who keeps bees, the decision will be taken by the marketing department. Good plan.

From the bees’ point of view, there will be forage in various places, and it tends to be warmer due to the heat island effect of cities. I have little concept on the proximity of urban hives to each other in order to allow mating.

If by urban you mean in an Islington garden, and not CBD then the forage improves, but so do the risks. Bad bees and bad keepers (or even good keepers with contrary bees) can cause problems. There is no “right” to keep bees, and my limited research shows that a council would tend to err on the side of a complainant rather than a beekeeper should a complaint be lodged. That’s similar to excessive noise from a property, for example. I did find one case of a beehive being given an ASBO (in Scotland I think) which is a tad surreal.

 

[Poly Hive]

It all depends.

There are rubbish urban situations with little or no forage for the bees and the same applies to the rural situation.

However there is only one way to test a mating site or a honey site, and that is... put some bees there.

And you really need five years to assess an apiary.

PH

 

[SimonP]

There in lies another problem. The maketing department doing it for a green publicity stunt. The drivers are all wrong, which means the proper care and attention won't be given in the long run. I don't understand why people don't go and ask 'experts' or ask internal staff who may have experinece in such matters and ask if they would be willing to look after the hives in return for a share in the honey produced etc. However, would you be willing Nose Ma to give up your time to look after your companies hives and train willing people in how to do the same?

People have allergic reactions is the type of risk that is possibly uncessary. I happen to think that strategically placed hives in a city centre is a good thing. A mix of diet for the bee is deffinately beneficial and the exposure to the public to raise awareness is also a good thing. It's just that if it purely for publicity and ticking of boxes, then it could do more harm than good.

 

[Nose Ma]

However, would you be willing Nose Ma to give up your time to look after your companies hives and train willing people in how to do the same?

Not really, partially as I am just a beginner - it would be better from a more experienced beekeeper to do the teaching, and partially because I know who will get the blame if they swarm and set up in the air conditioning intake.

I am also wary of the H&S assessment that I would have to do.

I would be willing to be part of a team who would mind the hive(s) though.

 

[MandF]

I dont know many firms who are allowing bees to be kept on their office roof for "marketing" reasons?
In London there is a social enterprise who are asking firms for roof space, and the SE maintains the hives - and they involve local kids/young adults.
As for swarming - why do you think there is a danger to the public from a swarm of bees? The public may perceive a danger, but thats a totally different thing to their actually being a danger.

 

[Nose Ma]

The public may perceive a danger, but thats a totally different thing to their actually being a danger.

It is the perception that is important. Witness, oh, I don't know, nuclear power. Least number of deaths per kWh for any form of electrical generation, but everyone is scared of it. Facts seldom get in the way of perception.

There's a great book on just this called "Risk" by Dan Gardner - he compares our "gut" feel to our "head" thinking things through. Gut usually wins where head has no data it can process carefully, so 20,000 bees that can sting = very dangerous and scary.

 

[MandF]

It is the perception that is important. Witness, oh, I don't know, nuclear power. Least number of deaths per kWh for any form of electrical generation, but everyone is scared of it. Facts seldom get in the way of perception.

There's a great book on just this called "Risk" by Dan Gardner - he compares our "gut" feel to our "head" thinking things through. Gut usually wins where head has no data it can process carefully, so 20,000 bees that can sting = very dangerous and scary.

I disagree - in this context. Should we not keep or encourage bees to be kept on city rooftops because of the panic a POTENTIAL swarm MIGHT cause? I wouldnt have thought a swarm, from a rooftop, would go to ground level whilst scouts find a new home anyway?

When I was in Florida last year, there was a swarm in a tree in one of the theme parks. So, lots of people, lots of kids, lots of overprotective parents, lots of ignorance.. were people screaming and stampeding towards the exits? No, just the area around the tree (swarm was just above head hight) was given a wide berth and the occasional parent would shepherd little Johnny well away.

I am not saying some people might find a swarm scary, or think there is a danger of being chased towards the closest river Beano style, I am saying the chances of that happening are ridiculously low and the benefits of keeping bees in the city VASTLY outweighs that "danger". It is so inconsequential it should not be on the SWOT analysis. IMO.

 

[Storm™]

The perception of danger and its implication on being able to do something aside there is another matter which has huge sway on our ability to achieve an aim such as keeping bees in an urban environment. And that is the people who are articulate, are able to form sentences and write in and raise issues.

Thats great. However lets take an imaginary person "Mrs Smith" and she hears about a potential hive location scheme near her home. So she writes in to voice her concerns. She threatens to raise a hullabaloo if this goes ahead. Those in charge may think twice. It depends on what Mrs Smith says. Ok sounds normal enough.

However nobody seems to go and check on these Mrs Smiths. Is this Mrs Smith some very odd person who has no grip in reality and who's opinion is based on the fact that she dropped her sugar bowl this morning so the end of the world is nigh. More and more these types of people are being exposed in a very public arena.

Kitty - X factor

Ok very entertaining but you wouldn't leave your kids in her care and if you would you are not fit to have kids really lol. I doubt very much if any of you would trust her to choose your fate...

So how many of these types of people are out there, who have the vote, who decide our fates and who have a personality type that means they will never stop until they get what they want. And how many of us are taken in by them via the internet or TV and join in when actually they were quite unstable privately ....

Thatcher, Mary Whitehouse, Stephen Fry, Charlie Sheen, Kirsty Alley, John Travolter,

Public opinion will always be squewed by these types of people and because they are so prolific many listen to them and they become the forefront of our voice. Which is frightening really. And worse happens later as they become more prolific - I and you may speak out against them, and me as a nobody are branded as "touched". So it really does not matter the points you are raising in your questions here, because it does not matter how profound the answer, how obvious things are to us all or what information you glean in the eyes of the world unless the advice/opinions/info you gather comes from someone prolific from the BBKA it really counts for nothing. In the eyes of anyone who might listen. And if you speak out against such a professional and class leading organisation as the BBKA - you are quite touched obviously......

 

[Nose Ma]

I take the point, and I did note that I was unaware of any issues with the hives in Paris or London, and they very much exist, and I assume swarm from time to time.

The problem is that the more colonies there are, the more there will be swarms. That’s just a corollary. I do not know if the local associations could spare the people to look after all of them, and I am sure a few firms would read “beekeeping for dummies” and give it a go.

The more swarms the more chances Something Bad will happen, whether it be the bees' fault or not. Something Bad could be as simple as a swarm forming on the top deck of a bus, or a bus that clips a swarm in a tree. Or even some kids chucking stones at a swarm – kids do dumb stuff from time to time. The more times there are swarms, the more likely an incident is. When one occurs “questions will be asked” and, in turn, those questions will bring into question the "safety" of urban beekeeping. That will then probably lead to many letters in the Daily Mail about allergies, immigrant bees causing trouble, and WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN! Papers will read “In scenes reminiscent of The Swarm, THOUSANDS of bees descended upon the High Street, attacking dogs, pensioners and children…” Journalism does not concern itself with facts if it can sell papers.

Should that happen bizarre legislation will ban the practice (if you don’t believe me, just go and look up the Dangerous Dogs Act for a knee-jerk piece of insanity) and we will be worse off.

I don’t want a ban. I like the idea of the odd invisible hive above my head as I walk down the high street, but people see the Omlet style “anyone can do this” and adopt the “natural” (i.e. leave well alone) style of keeping if not carefully looked after by an association or other mentor who knows what they are doing. Swarms are fine in the country, out apiaries, open areas, but not on Oxford Street.

I have no issue with people that choose to do it, it is not for me. As I said – would you keep hornets in a city? They too are endangered, and keep insect pests down so serve a “useful” purpose.

I’m a huge fan of getting people involved with bees, and understanding them. I just don’t think lots of hives in an urban environment is the way to do it.

 

[MandF]

I do not know if the local associations could spare the people to look after all of them, and I am sure a few firms would read “beekeeping for dummies” and give it a go.

As I said, local associations are not required to look after them, the social enterprise does. And like you or I, they will apply the necessary swarm management technique according to whether they want to make more hives, keep a nuc as insurance, or whatever. What they wont be doing, deliberately, is just allowing swarms to be cast.

If a local "firm" decides to keep bees, it will make the necessary requirements to do so - so if Harrods has a hive, it will either have some trained staff, or more likely use the services of a local beekeeper (or three).

You seem to be thinking there is some explosion of firms plonking hives on their roof for publicity, without a clue what they are doing? Does that sound like something a firm in the city of london would be doing to you?

 

[MandF]

Should that happen bizarre legislation will ban the practice (if you don’t believe me, just go and look up the Dangerous Dogs Act for a knee-jerk piece of insanity) and we will be worse off.

Will never happen.

So, is your argument that we should not condone or support urban beekeeping just in case urban beekeeping is banned after a swarm ends up on the top deck of a bus (which despite being metal and red and move, are like trees in so many other ways!).

This is exactly what I hate about society today - it is all lowest common denominator, and we should not pander to it or accept it, or worse give up our rights just in case it might happen.

If people want to keep bees on urban rooftops, or in suburban gardens, I am fully for it. There is about as much danger to human health as being hit by a speeding rickshaw in covent garden. Bees are natural, we need to learn to coexist with nature, not banish it from our lives "just in case".

 

[Nose Ma]

You seem to be thinking there is some explosion of firms plonking hives on their roof for publicity, without a clue what they are doing? Does that sound like something a firm in the city of london would be doing to you?

Given how well they have run the economy - "yes"! Sound decision making does not seem to be a strong point in the City.

I was describing a straw man. I worry more about the trendy soya latte drinking Guardian reading couple with a top bar hive (it's more natural, you see, beekeepers are killing the bees) on their balcony near the Barbican, who do not look after it properly and cause problems.

I want to see lots of people interested in bees, and carefully looking after their delicate little charges. I'm just don't believe this is a good or safe way to do it.

 

[MandF]

I’m a huge fan of getting people involved with bees, and understanding them. I just don’t think lots of hives in an urban environment is the way to do it.

And you still dont understand the purpose of city beekeeping - either large, wealthy companies decide to keep bees (Harrods, Royal Opera House, Fortnum and Mason etc) and sell their honey, or a social enterprise asks for roof space so THEY can keep bees, the social enterprise NOT the company. That social enterpise is all about "getting people involved with bees and understanding them", under priveleged kids primarily.

There are hundreds of bees in the city right now, and to date I have seen honey bees twice - and one of those times was on the lavendar on the roof where I work. There are plenty of parks, gardens etc in the city of london - why on earth would hundreds of honeybees be terrorising oxford street?

 

[Gardenbees]

I keep bees right in the middle of a town. I would say that exactly the same considerations apply as in the country:
Is it suitable from a human point of view?
and
Is it suitable from the bees' point of view?

Both urban and rural situations can be excellent, or terrible, for an apiary. You need to choose carefully. For example, beehives in the countryside next to a footpath or bridleway can be more of a problem to people, if the bees lose their temper for any reason, than hives on a rooftop in the middle of London, or at the end of a garden next to a railway line where no-one ever needs to pass by and no neighbours ever approach. In the town you may not have problems with adjacent horses (a rare situation but certainly possible); on the other hand, you might get picked on more by vandals (although this can also happen in the countryside). And theft is a possibility in rural as well as urban areas.

Likewise the forage in town can be very good, with a huge range of flowers and a long flowering season, or quite poor, with just a few street trees, patios and mown grass. The countryside can also have its drawbacks, with perhaps a glut of nectar when the OSR is in bloom, then nothing but trimmed hedges and barley fields for the rest of the year.

In both cases the thing to do is check out your apiary site in advance, work out whether the bees' behaviour is likely to cause a problem, have an educated guess about the suitability of forage, and only go for it if you think you've got a suitable site. In either case, you should have a good back-up plan for if you need to move your bees.

Personally I'd say that if you can get away with bees in a town, it's well worth going for. The quality of honey is often superb, and the general goodwill and interest generated is a great bonus. Just don't be under any illusions about the nature of bees, and accept that, as with big dogs, fast cars and other personal choices, you will need to bear in mind others' needs as well as your own enthusiasms...

 

[MandF]

Given how well they have run the economy - "yes"! Sound decision making does not seem to be a strong point in the City.

I was describing a straw man. I worry more about the trendy soya latte drinking Guardian reading couple with a top bar hive (it's more natural, you see, beekeepers are killing the bees) on their balcony near the Barbican, who do not look after it properly and cause problems.

I want to see lots of people interested in bees, and carefully looking after their delicate little charges. I'm just don't believe this is a good or safe way to do it.

How they run the economy?! Who runs the economy? Or are you thinking that only Banks have offices in the city of london? And assuming the banks run the economy.

If your incorrectly stereotypical couple in the barbican keep bees on their balcony they will personally discover the error of their ways before our beano-style cloud of bees emerges looking for a victim.

 

[Nose Ma]

Not quite, an over simplification. I like the current situation. I don't want it banned (I think it is in New York, by the way). I like having urban hives. As with all things, encouragement can cause more problems than it solves.

I agree on lowest common denominator. Following the accident on the motorway last week papers wanted the whole debate about speed limits re-opened. That is the issue you need to contend with.

I'm not fussed about the odd person getting stung, and a swarm would not bother me, it's the perception of danger magnified by the press that is the issue.

Good luck with the encouragement, I hope it works. I hope there is no backlash, and I hope we have many successful urban colonies. I know people are funny, selfish and idiotic, so I don't hold out too much hope for a beehive on every building.