Round 2

[Repwoc]

Some of my mini mating nucs now have mated queens with capped worker brood so they are ready to move on. I have more virgins due to emerge tomorrow. How long should I wait between removing the mated queens and introducing the new virgins?

 

[jeff33]

I can't remember on which thread it was but B+ described the need to renew the bees in the mating hives (ie replace the current ones with new nurse bees) as they will get too old to attend to the brood and may deplete in time. In terms of introduction I am not too sure, someone else will probably advise. As you are replacing a mated queen for a virgin, is there a risk of not accepting her?

 

[Repwoc]

I can't remember on which thread it was but B+ described the need to renew the bees in the mating hives (ie replace the current ones with new nurse bees) as they will get too old to attend to the brood and may deplete in time.

The original nurse bees are probably three weeks old so yes ordinarily they would be moving on to foraging duties. The sealed brood in the mating nucs will emerge to provide new nurse bees in due course though. Maybe I should leave the mated queens in the mating nucs for now to be sure of fresh nurse bees when the new virgin is due to start laying.

In terms of introduction I am not too sure, someone else will probably advise. As you are replacing a mated queen for a virgin, is there a risk of not accepting her?

I guess there is. Richard Noel has a Youtube video where he shows how he introduces virgins to established mating nucs and he just runs them in suggesting that the risk isn't large. He doesn't say (AFAIR) how long he leaves them queenless before hand, however.

 

[madasafish]

Take virgin queen, dab her back with honey, run her in...
Much easier.

Don't worry about ageing workers: brood will replace them...

 

[Repwoc]

Update - this is what I've done. Yesterday I removed the mated queens from the Kielers and put them in butler cages with fondant and some attendants. About an hour later I put in the new VQs, still in their hair roller cages, closed up and left them overnight. There was no aggressive behaviour.

This morning I checked them and there were a few bees walking on the hair roller cages but mostly just ignoring the VQs. I removed a frame of brood from each nuc and laid it flat, then opened the cages and let the VQs walk out of them onto the comb of their own volition. A few bees started to lick them. I watched each one for a few minutes and saw no sign of aggression.

I'll check them tomorrow

 

[For want of a better word]

You can put a virgin in within hours of taking the newly mated queen away.

When our Keilers seem low on bees we shake some in, in front of the mating nuc...off of a brood frame from an adjacent colony ( Check HM is not on the frame first)

Good luck with your queen rearing.... far better than the imported from wompoopooland varieties!!

Yeghes da

 

[Repwoc]

You can put a virgin in within hours of taling the newly mated queen away.

When our Keilers seem low on bees we shake some in off of a brood frame from an adjacent colony ( Check HM is not on the frame first)

OK so my precautions may not be so necessary. I'll try the more direct method with the next batch next weekend.

Good luck with your queen rearing.... far better than the imported from wompoopooland varieties!!

Yeghes da

Thanks - lockdown has certainly helped, knowing that I'm going to be around at the crucial times and not having to plan around working for a living!

 

[B+.]

. far better than the imported from wompoopooland varieties!!

I've looked at a map but can't find it. Where is this place?

 

[B+.]

Update - this is what I've done. Yesterday I removed the mated queens from the Kielers and put them in butler cages with fondant and some attendants. About an hour later I put in the new VQs, still in their hair roller cages, closed up and left them overnight. There was no aggressive behaviour.

This morning I checked them and there were a few bees walking on the hair roller cages but mostly just ignoring the VQs. I removed a frame of brood from each nuc and laid it flat, then opened the cages and let the VQs walk out of them onto the comb of their own volition. A few bees started to lick them. I watched each one for a few minutes and saw no sign of aggression.

I'll check them tomorrow

Think about what you're doing whenever you stock one of these mini-nucs. You seal them up together for 3 days so that they'll become a "family unit". When the queen is mated and laying, you destroy that family unit by taking the queen away. Those workers are now some weeks older. They certainly aren't young nurse bees...but, you're expecting them to bond with a new queen and care for her as though they were.
I much prefer full-frame nucs where the queen can develop a proper nest and is never short of space. When I used mini-nucs, I'd always re-stock them each time with a fresh batch of nurse bees.

 

[Repwoc]

Those workers are now some weeks older. They certainly aren't young nurse bees...but, you're expecting them to bond with a new queen and care for her as though they were.

Are you saying they won't and what I've done is doomed to failure?

 

[For want of a better word]

I've looked at a map but can't find it. Where is this place?

Never been there.. but I am told that it is South of Watford and East of Exeter!

 

[B+.]

Are you saying they won't and what I've done is doomed to failure?

I'm saying that older bees aren't the best bees to stock your mini-nuc with. That shouldn't be controversial. It's well documented.
One of the problems with the smaller nucs is that there is so little space for the queen to lay that, as soon as she's started laying, the box is full. She doesn't have space to establish a proper nest with brood-in-all-stages. This means that subsequent queens will have older foragers and eggs/very young larvae. If you look at the age of workers which tend the queen/young brood, they're too young.

 

[B+.]

Never been there.. but I am told that it is South of Watford and East of Exeter!

As near as I can figure, you're the only person on the whole of the internet to use that word.

 

[Ian123]

I’ moved all my mating nucs over to five or six frame boxes some time ago, I only stock them with 1 frame of sealed brood to start and a couple of frames of stores well covered in bees. It makes them easier to manage. Had to thin some of the first down today as the queens had laid up to many frames in some boxes.

 

[For want of a better word]

As near as I can figure, you're the only person on the whole of the internet to use that word.

I live in a little world of my own !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4

Chons da

 

[B+.]

I live in a little world of my own !

OK. I can accept that. I'm 100% certain you'll come to regret saying it though.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Update - this is what I've done. Yesterday I removed the mated queens from the Kielers and put them in butler cages with fondant and some attendants. About an hour later I put in the new VQs, still in their hair roller cages, closed up and left them overnight. There was no aggressive behaviour.

This morning I checked them and there were a few bees walking on the hair roller cages but mostly just ignoring the VQs. I removed a frame of brood from each nuc and laid it flat, then opened the cages and let the VQs walk out of them onto the comb of their own volition. A few bees started to lick them. I watched each one for a few minutes and saw no sign of aggression.

I'll check them tomorrow

That's a good trick using the hair curlers Paul they work well

 

[Repwoc]

Update - this is what I've done. Yesterday I removed the mated queens from the Kielers and put them in butler cages with fondant and some attendants. About an hour later I put in the new VQs, still in their hair roller cages, closed up and left them overnight. There was no aggressive behaviour.

This morning I checked them and there were a few bees walking on the hair roller cages but mostly just ignoring the VQs. I removed a frame of brood from each nuc and laid it flat, then opened the cages and let the VQs walk out of them onto the comb of their own volition. A few bees started to lick them. I watched each one for a few minutes and saw no sign of aggression.

I'll check them tomorrow

I checked them today. All five VQs present and alive.