Rose hive method using standard hives (national)

[exmoorbeek]

Hi

I'm a newbie (forum and beekeeping). I did a course last year and couldn't decide on hive so didn't purchase last year. After a bit of research and lots of pondering I want to have a hive based on the national (and had decided national deep) for flexibility of hive parts etc whilst allowing for large brood space. However I have been reading about the rose hive method and would like to start based on this system, but not using his hives (don't like ply and very wet / cold here on exmoor).

Downside is weight of boxes which can be overcome by decanting into a nuke box I believe (based on national std brood box). I would however like to use the national supers (on basis if i revert to 'typical beeping system' I would buy the deep brood box, so don't really want the national std brood box in my cupboard so to speak).

is this feasible (to use a rose hive based on national super boxes) and if so advantages / disadvantages?

Sorry if raised before but couldn't see this specific query on searches.

Also is there a pending issue with EU / UK regulations about selling honey extracted from comb which has had brood in it?

 

[Finman]

.
Rose method means that all frames in hive are same size.... Not a revolution. So guys have done in Finland tens of years.

Many beekeepers, professionals included, save their back from heavy weights and use langstroth mediums in the whole hive.

I use mixed. No rule what I use but bigger frame size is for wintering, but bees winter as well in two smaller boxes too..

 

[Finman]

Hi


Also is there a pending issue with EU / UK regulations about selling honey extracted from comb which has had brood in it?

That is misunderstanding. The rule means that when you extract, living larvae are not allowed to swim on honey surface. ... But look at Hungarian long hive frames... All are in same, honey and brood.

It is natural system that in the hive a cluster is up in spring and along summer brood area comes down and honey store is up.
It is more that normal that bees store honey into brood box and according that false rule it is not allowed to extract...unnatural idea.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

When you say national deep do you actually mean 14x12" (jumbo) the 'deep' is the 14x8" box (what I think you have labelled as 'standard')
But you also talk of using national supers so my impression is that you are not planning on following the Rose method really but intend on a conventional national (either 14x12" or deep brood box)with BB and shallows (supers) but minus the QX?
Or have I got it wrong completely?

 

[Dishmop]

Also is there a pending issue with EU / UK regulations about selling honey extracted from comb which has had brood in it?

Anything is possible with the EU but I doubt it in this instance.

Well, we hope it isnt.

If you dont want the queen to lay in the combs you want to extract honey from then you use an excluder......Some do, some dont.

Advantage of using same size frames is that once extracted they can be passed down the line for brood.

 

[Dishmop]

Where does the term Super come from anyway?

"Oh look! Loads of honey......Super.

 

[Finman]

Where does the term Super come from anyway?

"Oh look! Loads of honey......Super.

We say it honey box.

Brood box is brood box even if it is full of honey.
And brood can be in honey box.
You may lift brood box over excluder or topmost on honey box tower.

So name is according the meaning

 

[Dishmop]

We say it honey box.

Brood box is brood box even if it is full of honey.
And brood can be in honey box.

So name is according the meaning

More descriptive than Super.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Where does the term Super come from anyway?

"Oh look! Loads of honey......Super.

In that case shouldn't the brood box be called a B*llox as in "ooh look! Queen cells - b*llox, hope they haven't swarmed yet!"

 

[exmoorbeek]

Thx for replies.

To clarify I'd like to use national supers (i.e. shallow body) throughout.

If I don't get on with the rose method (or 'all-one-size method' if you prefer) then I can purchase the jumbo boxes (I thought these were called national deep) for brood and revert to a standard hive set up. I also prefer natural cedar so don't have to treat hives for weatherproofing, plus m,ore flexibility buying kit second hand.

I guess the root of the question is there a disadvantage in using national supers as a brood box, especially for overwintering, even if I used 2 (or 3)? I know by using a national I wouldn't get as many frames in a box but beehive kit is expensive and I don't want to buy something I can't either sell or ideally adapt to a different system.

 

[Finman]

.
As you are a beginner I recommend that you use very ordinary systems. It has enough to learn.

 

[Dishmop]

I guess the root of the question is there a disadvantage in using national supers as a brood box, especially for overwintering,

No.

then I can purchase the jumbo boxes (I thought these were called national deep)

Just national deep.


Using shallows for brood means you have to use 2 boxes instead of one, therefore more expensive.
You might save something by using deeps for honey, but then you have to make sure you have an extractor that will take deep frames.

I know by using a national I wouldn't get as many frames in a box

???????????????????

 

[ratcatcher]

hi exmoorbeek, Im doing very similar, I had already bought four commercial hives and around 15 supers last year, for using in my woodland, I then saw tim rowes rose hive method and wanted to try that, so am using commercial supers, I did however go on to buy a few rose osb, but I now have a variety of hives to run alongside each other, so maybe end of next year I can get a comparison between the two

 

[JEP]

Bees don't care what type of hive you use or size frames you give them as long as the queen has access to enough space to lay and there is enough space for lots of winter stores. If you use shallow national supers throughout a decent hive with a fairly prolific queen is going to need 3 shallow supers to overwinter on and there will be brood across at least 3 shallow supers in the summer. This is going to make finding the queen a real pain when you need to (when the hive will be full of bees). It would be easier and cheaper (less frames) to use a hive with a large brood box and confine the queen to the brood box, then when you need to find her you only have to look at 10 or so frames instead of as 30?, 50?, 70?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

 

[DulwichGnome]

I have one colony on supers only and it is doing very well, 6 boxes. It over wintered on three, I took the bottom two away in the spring and put a clean box and floor underneath. When they had nearly filled the bottom box I checker boarded the bottom box with a new one in the middle (if you are using foundation you could just put it in the middle). When they had started to fill those I did the same with the top box and so on till they are up to 6. On my last visit I removed 5 frames of sealed honey, replacing them with new frames and put a QE under it so they do not lay them up with broad.

Lifting anything more than a super of honey is hard work. Rose size is doable, standard brood is heavy and not fun to extract. IMHO

Mike.

 

[jd101k2000]

Hi Exmoorbeek,

I got confused about brood frame sizes. There are some people who refer to the 14" x 12" frames as National Deeps. BUT If you order DN frames (e.g. DN4 - the DN meaning Deep National) from a supplier you will get Standard Brood National frames. I got caught out. You don't need to.

To avoid ambiguity it is often best to refer to the 14" x 12" frames as either 14 x 12's or National Jumbo frames.

As for 'super', it comes from the Latin meaning 'above' or 'beyond'.
For this reason, many bee keepers, claiming Latin scholarship, will insist that a particular box is only a 'super' if it is above the brood.
(On the other hand, I have never heard a single one of them refer to the same box under the brood as a 'sub', or as a 'pro' when walking it to the hive. So inconsistent )

Other bee keepers refer to boxes of that particular size as a super wherever it is.

Still others like calling it a honey box, even though, in the 'brood and a half' scheme it is a brood box.

Take your pick. You will always annoy someone who thinks they are being correct. (possibly me ;-))

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

(On the other hand, I have never heard a single one of them refer to the same box under the brood as a 'sub', or as a 'pro' when walking it to the hive. So inconsistent )

No - because we nadir them

 

[jd101k2000]

No - because we nadir them

...and that is the zenith to which this forum rises.

 

[Finman]

.
Big idea of Rose method...I cannot see it.

I can see very unflexible systems of brood and half, Bailey comb exhange, one brood box, no brood in super combs and so on. Excluder here and excluder there.

You may play flexible comb system with many ways and not hang yourself into some certain "method"

Jump from shallow to jumbo....it does make you better beekeeper.
Brood and half..very rigid system.