Rose hive method using standard hives (national)

[Ely]

The terms 'super' and 'brood box' are not box specific. They just refer to the role and position they are playing on the hive. I'E, a shallow can be either a super or a brood box dependent on the role. So the term 'national supers' can be a little confusing because you could be referring to any of the 3 main sizes.

Just trying to help

 

[ratcatcher]

This is going to make finding the queen a real pain when you need to (when the hive will be full of bees).

at what point do you NEED to find the queen,

all of my colonies are made from swarms or splits, and start life in a 6 frame poly nuc, on either national or rose frames, once I see BIAS I can then find and mark the queen, once they are transferred into either a commercial or rose osb hive, I don't really need to see her again do I (we like to, just to have peace of mind) but as long as we see BIAS, then we dont need to be searching through multiple sections,

if using osb and we see swarm cells, then each box can be turned into a new colony, therefore each frame would be checked anyway, as the frames would be swapped around to give us a box with a qc, brood,stores and bees, and at that point you would look out for the old queen

finman has pointed out in the past, that the rose hive holds the same amount of bees than a commercial or national hive, just spread out over a bigger area, taking that into account, then finding the queen in a 5 box hive, lets say 10,000 bees per section, should be easier than finding a queen in a BB with 50,000 in it

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I have one colony on supers only and it is doing very well, 6 boxes. It over wintered on three, I took the bottom two away in the spring and put a clean box and floor underneath. When they had nearly filled the bottom box I checker boarded the bottom box with a new one in the middle (if you are using foundation you could just put it in the middle). When they had started to fill those I did the same with the top box and so on till they are up to 6. On my last visit I removed 5 frames of sealed honey, replacing them with new frames and put a QE under it so they do not lay them up with broad.

Lifting anything more than a super of honey is hard work. Rose size is doable, standard brood is heavy and not fun to extract. IMHO

Mike.

One of our most venerable members uses the three National shallows method and made it sound really attractive. I have started on National "deep" only (DN4) but can see myself switching as I get older. THAT will be a busy winter in the workshop...

 

[Finman]

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50 000 bees is small size hive. Find a queen is easy because it is on brood frames and it does not walk around 8 box hive. And you need not see every time the queen when you open the hive. That is not a reason to use one brood box.

 

[Dishmop]

I got confused about brood frame sizes. There are some people who refer to the 14" x 12" frames as National Deeps. BUT If you order DN frames (e.g. DN4 - the DN meaning Deep National) from a supplier you will get Standard Brood National frames. I got caught out. You don't need to.

To avoid ambiguity it is often best to refer to the 14" x 12" frames as either 14 x 12's or National Jumbo frames.

Its not getting caught out if you got what you ordered. A national deep is just that...DN.
14" x12 " is 14" x 12"

Petrol is not diesel.

 

[Dishmop]

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50 000 bees is small size hive. Find a queen is easy because it is on brood frames and it does not walk around 8 box hive. And you need not see every time the queen when you open the hive. That is not a reason to use one brood box.

If she doesnt walk around, who lays eggs in the boxes where we would like to see only honey?

 

[Finman]

If she doesnt walk around, who lays eggs in the boxes where we would like to see only honey?

I do not mind who it is.

I have 3 langstroth boxes for brood. If the queen lays even more, I am very glad. The more brood the more foragers.

That is why I let the queen walk around.

But quite many queens are able to lay only one box.

 

[Finman]

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If there are brood in some honey combs, they will soon emerge away from there. I put them so far from main brood area that bees do not renew laying. When bee emerge, worker fills the cell with honey.

 

[Dishmop]

Many people just use a QX so that queen cant lay in the comb that they want to keep clean for honey, and when they extract there is also no brood.

 

[exmoorbeek]

The attraction of running without an queen excluder is you allow the colony to behave more naturally. hence the rose system. Also damage to other bees by the excluder? Anyway this is the system that appeals to me as it tallys with how I keep my other livestock.

 

[Dishmop]

The attraction of running without an queen excluder is you allow the colony to behave more naturally. hence the rose system. Also damage to other bees by the excluder? Anyway this is the system that appeals to me as it tallys with how I keep my other livestock.

Sorry, am I missing something here?



Surely the only difference between a Rose hive and the more common National hive is the fact that all boxes are the same size.

The Rose Hive Method is made possible because these hives are all so interchangeable, and also because a queen-excluder is not needed in a Rose hive. The brood-nest is not restricted in any way, and the colony can move about within the hive in the way that suits them best.

A QX is not "needed" in any other type of hive either, but people use them so that you dont get brood where you would prefer that there is only honey...

However, I do see the good points in using boxes that are all the same, other than the fact that a lot of people wouldnt be able to lift a "deep" box full of honey for inspections..

 

[Ely]

Simple answer - don't extract the frames that still have brood. The brood nest shrinks and gets filled with honey in the upper boxes late season. Beekeepers using this method don't extract frames still containing brood. Not unless they are a bit daft.

 

[Dishmop]

Simple answer - don't extract the frames that still have brood.The brood nest shrinks and gets filled with honey in the upper boxes late season. Beekeepers using this method don't extract frames still containing brood. Not unless they are a bit daft.

I have no problem with that.. what I am saying is that why does not using a QX and having boxes all the same size make this something completely different and new and revolutionary in how to keep bees.. It's not.

If I take the shallow boxes off my hives and replace them with deeps and not use a QX..its still a beehive. The bees dont do anything different or have a better less stressfull lifestyle..

The brood nest shrinks and gets filled with honey in the upper boxes late season.

Given enough room the queen wouldn't be laying up top anyway..although we know things dont always work as we want and therefore we try and stop her.

 

[ratcatcher]

if it has not been seen already, tim explains it so much better

http://youtu.be/XyZ-5AjXfHE

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

That's a good-sized colony.

Here is Buckybeast early morning, using the method with a splash of Demaree.

 

[Ely]

Given enough room the queen wouldn't be laying up top anyway..although we know things dont always work as we want and therefore we try and stop her.

I'm not sure if I explained well enough. Whichever boxes the upper part of the brood nest occupies will be back filled with honey as the nest shrinks towards the end of season. So unless you are pointlessly squeamish to not like honey stored in cells previously used for brood it doesn't matter where the queen lays. Once upon a time man ate honey, brood, wax and all for the nutrients (although I certainly don't hehe, I don't extract if a frame still contains brood). The benefits of not using an excluder outway prissyness for me. It seems silly to limit the queen and I have seen less tendency to swarm in my colonies since I stopped using the excluder although that may just be coincidence.

You're right it doesn't matter what boxes you use but there is more to Tim Rowes method than one size box and no excluder. I don't follow his method though.

 

[Ely]

if it has not been seen already, tim explains it so much better

http://youtu.be/XyZ-5AjXfHE

I love his house. He must be part hobbit