Requeening my hive - Advice please

[simonforeman]

I have decided to re-queen my hive for 2 reasons...1. I do not know how old the queen is and 2. they have always been ok but after inspections they follow for 20-30mins, also will sting rest of that day. As I have the hive at home would like to be able to leave hive and have no issues....
so my plan is...
1. I have a new Queen being posted today to arrive tomorrow (Thursday)
2. I will be culling the old queen this afternoon
3. Leaving the cap on I will add the new queen in her cage to the hive either tomorrow when she arrives or Friday morning, Which is best please? Also berfore adding queen I will knock down any queen cells started before adding but will I need to knock down again after adding her cage at any point?
4. I will look to take the cap off exposing the candy on Saturday or Sunday and leave for 2 days before checking she has made it out.
5. Will leave hive then for 10 days to settle down before checking for eggs...

Does this sound ok please?
I know I can create a nuc but I prefer the above option with what time I have
Thanks in advance
hive is on double brood and arranged warm way.

 

[Beefriendly]

will I need to knock down again after adding her cage at any point?
4. I will look to take the cap off exposing the candy on Saturday or Sunday and

Almost certainly you will need to check for new queen cells again.
I would directly release queen after 3 days.....onto a frame and see how the bees react to her. If aggression put back for longer. The candy plugs can dry out and the bees don't always chew their way through them to release the queen.

 

[Walrus]

I used to use your proposed method and lost the new queens quite often, which I could never understand.

Sometimes there is more than one queen in the hive. Often queens are lost after introduction if they are not laying queens (she won’t be after being in a cage in the post) or if there is already another queen in there.

Best bet is to use a push in cage over emerging brood frame with some nectar on it if possible. New queen goes under cage alone, minus attendant workers. Old queen(s) killed or moved to a nuc. Check back in 4 days. Look for eggs outside cage to see if there is another queen in there. If there is, find her and repeat. If bees are happy I.e. not gripping onto cage then release new queen.

 

[Cuckmere couple]

beefriendly has good advice there

Having followed the instructions you have above with two bought queens this year....and lost both...i can tell you how not to do it!

i like the step of seeing how they react...and i think longer in the cage and wiht the plug is better than shorter

i did minimum of time i.e. 12-24 hours before unplugging and then checking she was out within 2-3 days...both times they killed her...mild bees, ended up hopelessly queen less etc and no q cells

so good luck

 

[simonforeman]

Thankyou for the advice...

If I still go with my original plan but use some of your advice Beefriendly. I knock down all QC's when I add the new queen in her cage. I then can knock down any more down when I release her in 3 days? then leave her to get on with laying and check in 10 days??

Will I need to check for QC's again?

Sorry for my lack of experience in this.

 

[Cuckmere couple]

keen to hear how it goes...its supposed to be straightforward and i was pretty meticulous...

 

[simonforeman]

Sorry also going on what Walrus says about 2 queens... if I cull old queen today and before adding the new queen in cage, while knocking down QC's I see new eggs or not this will tell me if there is another queen yes?

 

[Beefriendly]

Will I need to check for QC's again?

Yes you will, and sooner than 10 days from release. Because if you missed one earlier you will now have a virgin running around and possibly a dead new queen.

Now often you will find new queen laying well and they will still start to draw queen cells from her young larvae. Not always...but it does happen...if they do this you will need to keep on knocking down queen cells until her own brood is emerging (about 3 weeks). Most panic and think they are trying to supercede the new queen as something "wrong" with her...they aren't and she is fine.

Some breeders reckon that about 50% of the queens they breed are lost on introduction. It's not an exact science and everyone has little wrinkles/tips that give them confidence for introductions.

 

[simonforeman]

Some great advice thank you...

So once the new queen is in her cage in he hive they will stop making QC it's then checking to make sure I did not miss any that are now capped?

Most what I've read says leave hive alone for 10 days. So if I knock down all QC when the cage go's in and then check released after 2 days or direct release as Beefriendly says. If I when check 7 days after this I should capture all QC before they emerge? Is that ok?

 

[Beefriendly]

Some great advice thank you...

So once the new queen is in her cage in he hive they will stop making QC it's then checking to make sure I did not miss any that are now capped?

Nope, they will usually continue to build queen cells if they have sufficient young larvae. I always go through the nuc/hive and check before releasing and about a week to 6 days afterwards do the same again whilst checking new queen is laying. And repeat at least weekly thereafter.
With a queen in cage they know there is one there, but it's not a natural situation, so I think they assume she is a little duff and try to supersede her. Of course she isn't duff. The bees don't know all will be back to normal in a few days time.

 

[Dadnlad]

A slightly more long-winded approach if you are nervous about losing her, could be to do as above but in a nuc on a frame or two of emerging brood+food, whilst at the same time making the origional hopelessly Q-, then combine ?

 

[Beefriendly]

beefriendly has good advice there

Can't claim the credit for the advice I'm afraid...it is all stuff I was told about from other experienced beekeepers and then tried and tested it; and found it works (at least in my apiaries with the types of bee's I keep).
All I'm doing is repeating it again.

 

[simonforeman]

Plan B

So...
I Could not find the Queen.... went through both brood boxes twice and could not find her to cull her. Had to finish up after an hour due to time.
so plan B was to make up a Nuc with brood, eggs and stores. So when new queen comes tomorrow i have somewhere for her. Sorry but here come the newbie questions..
1. I’m hoping that I have the queen in the nuc but did not see her, will they of started to make QC in either the double brood or nuc by tomorrow lunch so I can determine where she is?
2. Can I leave the queen in her cage tomorrow when she comes and put her in on Friday morning if I can not see which set up the old queen is in.
3. Is so how do you look after her .
4. If I still have old queen in original double brood can I add a queen excluder between the 2 boxes at some point this next week so that it is easier to find her when I come to unite the new queen nuc with the double boxes?
5. Will I need to feed the nuc if I end up adding the new queen to it?

Thanks in advance.

 

[simonforeman]

Went through both the nuc and double brood today again and still could not see the queen. There were no QC in either so I have put the new queen in the nuc with the cap still on. Look to leave her in there for 3 days then I can check for any new eggs to make sure that there is no queen in there.
The double brood I have added a QE between the 2 boxes to give myself a chance of finding the old queen then will check this boxes in 4 days to see where the eggs are.
I will knock down and QC when they start to build them.
Does this sound ok to all?

 

[Beefriendly]

Simon there is good way of isolating the queen if you have a brood box, QE, and approx a day to spare.
1. Remove all brood boxes to to one side, leaving floor. Add empty brood box onto floor.
2. Shake the bees from every frame into this brood box, and put to one side until box empty, check queen isn't on sides or these frmaes.
Add frames back to brood box. Do same for second brood box.
3. Add a couple of frames with some brood placed side by side in the middle of this mass of bees in bottom brood box. Yes now your brood boxes only have 10 frames or one has 9..... matters little they are going back next day.
4. Place qe on top of this and stick other brood boxes etc back on top of this QE.
5. Next day nearly all the bees will have migrated back to the top 2 brood boxes and your queen will be found between the two frames of brood. Knowing she must be there makes it much easier to look for her. There is almost no where else for her to be....But some are skittish and if she isn't look around edges of box....she can't be anywhere else.


A variation is to reverse this and "sieve" the bees and queen through a queen excluder downwards. She can't get through so is found on QE. I have heard this works well but have not used it myself. The above I know works well...again thanks to the beekeepers who passed on all this useful information.

 

[simonforeman]

Thank you for your great advice Beefriendly...

I will use your first method next weekend before I unite the nuc with the new queen in to the hive after she starts to lay.

 

[drex]

Certainly, in my experience the first method is much less messy . They do not like the sieving process much and you tend to get a crowd of angry flying bees.

 

[simonforeman]

So a quick update...
The new queen has been in her nuc in her cage for 3 days. Checked on her and nuc calm and no bees hanging onto her cage, so have taken off the tab and pushed a hole into the candy but not all way through(candy was quite soft). I was very surprised that there were no queen cells in the nuc is this common?
I will check again in 2 days to see she has been released and laying. Then I will be using Beefriendlys advice to find queen in the old hive as still did not see her today buy lots of eggs.

Also just one last question... There was 1 capped queen cell in the double brood 3/4 way down the frame. Tjetd is loads of room to lay and they have started to draw the new foundation frames I put in to replace the ones I took out for the making up the nuc. I knocked this one down and will keep an eye on them. Hope it is right?