Requeening my bees from hell

[Curly green finger's]

.....and spare a thought for the bees

There vision of colour is different so I dont think they will mind.

 

[oxnatbees]

They are local black bees I have been breeding and selecting for good characters (not many hives in the area). This is the first time in my 10 years of beeking that one of my colonies has “turned”. Normally they are “***** cats”.

Near me is a farmer with 80 hives of local bees spread across several miles. He says he can tell when a new beekeeper has started up in the area and bought e.g. Buckfasts because his hives at that end of his area turn nasty for a year or two.

If this is an isolated hive and your others are still happy, try looking on Google Maps, satellite view for new hives near your grumpy girls.

 

[Norton]

Most probably carnica is the problem.

 

[Boston Bees]

Near me is a farmer with 80 hives of local bees spread across several miles. He says he can tell when a new beekeeper has started up in the area and bought e.g. Buckfasts because his hives at that end of his area turn nasty for a year or two.

Maybe he's right. But in reality the problem is just as likely to be his own bees rather than anyone else's.

I've noticed that once people get to a certain number of hives, they somehow start to believe that any bad traits in their bees must be their neighbour's fault, and any good traits in their neighbour's bees are purely due to their neighbour's luck in living close to such a good bee farmer. It's a happy self delusion I guess.

 

[Sanntos]

That certain number is 1, or close to it

 

[elainemary]

Most probably carnica is the problem.

Can understand why a Buckfast cross might cause temper difficulties with lots of heterozygous genes at play. Don’t understand why this would be the case wiith a Carnica cross though?

Pure carnica are renowned for their gentleness and calm qualities, so likely to pass on their gentle qualities.
Unless, they are crossed with mixed heritage bees or bees that are known to have temper issues, or could become expressed when the offspring mate with other bees a generation later ….

 

[Norton]

Mellifera x carnica gives extremely aggressive bees.

 

[Antipodes]

Mellifera x carnica gives extremely aggressive bees.

Is that the first cross?

 

[Mabee]

Mellifera x carnica gives extremely aggressive bees.

I thought this mix was similar to what Jolanta used, I don’t believe they are nasty? Maybe @Into the lions den could comment on that?

 

[Norton]

Is that the first cross?

Yes.

 

[Norton]

They are both European populations but do not combine well.
Brother Adam tried many times to include carnica in his lines, but without apparent success. However if you study the present day pedigrees you may notice that there are some crossings with carnica.
I do not know if these combinations are continued. I believe that Michael Collier might have successfully combined Buckfast with carnica, not 100% sure on that.

 

[mbc]

Yes.

Experience in these parts is that the first cross between the local mostly amm stock and carnica produce a fairly good bee with high productivity and good temperament.
It's subsequent crosses (which happen quickly because the carnies do bring a high propensity to swarm with them), that can lead to more mixed results, some good, but generally not so good as the first cross, most mediocre, not so good as the locals without the carnie element or visa versa, and some bloody vicious which need requeening ASAP.
Unfortunately it's often beginners without the experience to recognise or act on this that first bring in the carnies and I've seen it quite a few times where they've just left the craft when it becomes unpleasant.

 

[philipm]

The hive that I need to requeen came from a swarm a really strong hive of very dark bees.I went to strap the hive up yesterday and they were out like a shot before I even did anything.What worries me the most is that lots of beginners are given a swarm to start with not knowing what to expect.

 

[alancooper]

About my locality and my “bees from hell”.
Yes, my bees and Queens are black locals, as are my other colonies. I have just the one apiary but occasionally buy a Queen from a well known/respected regional (NI) beekeeper to maintain genetic heterogeneity.
Three years ago a proportion of bees in one colony developed workers with a relatively broad single stripe and since then I have bred the occasional grafted Q which is more orange than black (which I discard). There are also two apiaries within three miles (closest 2 miles).
What are your thoughts on the likelihood of the “nasty” trait recurring after I have requeened my cross colony?

 

[enrico]

About my locality and my “bees from hell”.
Yes, my bees and Queens are black locals, as are my other colonies. I have just the one apiary but occasionally buy a Queen from a well known/respected regional (NI) beekeeper to maintain genetic heterogeneity.
Three years ago a proportion of bees in one colony developed workers with a relatively broad single stripe and since then I have bred the occasional grafted Q which is more orange than black (which I discard). There are also two apiaries within three miles (closest 2 miles).
What are your thoughts on the likelihood of the “nasty” trait recurring after I have requeened my cross colony?

Any bees can turn nasty. That is why I suggest urban beekeeping can be a huge worry!

 

[HarryO]

1. Do not have a Queen (Q) to replace the "aggression producing Q"

2. Will remove aggression producing Queen, then will destroy any emergency Q cells they produce.

2. Relying on putting a frame with eggs (may possibly, likely to, have other older brood on frame as well ) from another more passive hive.

3. Is 4 or 5 days long enough to wait for the aggressive brood and eggs to have become unusable to the aggressive bees to make emergency Queen cells?

5. Or should I wait 9 / 10 days for brood left by aggression producing Q to be capped?

(Do not have a nuc. box) Other hives appear disease free, I know that moving frames between hives is frowned upon.

 

[Erichalfbee]

3. Is 4 or 5 days long enough to wait for the aggressive brood and eggs to have become unusable to the aggressive bees to make emergency Queen cells?

Personally I would wait till day 7 before taking all the queen cells down and putting your frame of eggs in. I’d go back 6 days later to remove all but one uncapped cell.

 

[HarryO]

Personally I would wait till day 7 before taking all the queen cells down and putting your frame of eggs in. I’d go back 6 days later to remove all but one uncapped cell.

Thank you for your very prompt reply. I will take your advice. Will do the manipulation end of March time, depending on weather.

1. Do you think there will be any drones around at that time?

2. Up here in East Yorks. quite mild micro type climate and in rain shadow.

3. If I put a shallow frame in each of other hives (4) will it encourage drone production?

4. But still need a lot more drones and from different queens to produce a good mated queen.

5. Might have to live with aggro. colony until a bit later in the season.

I'm rambling now.
Once again thank you for your advice

 

[Erichalfbee]

March would be a little early where you are I fear. Once you see drones flying in numbers you can go for it.
The other alternatives i might consider would be to remove the queen and unite the colony to another or remove the queen, wait till all the brood is capped and introduce a mated queen

 

[Erichalfbee]

3. If I put a shallow frame in each of other hives (4) will it encourage drone production?

That won’t help your new queen to get mated. It’s likely that she avoids these by flying to a more distant DCA. There’s a little argument about this in another thread though