replacing British National Shallow brood with Deep Brood frames

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Buzzo 

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Hi
following a swarm capture I bought a Maisemore National 14 x 12 Poly Hive and filled with national brood frames.
The bees are now building comb at the bottom of these shallow(ish) frames .

I would like to replace these in the spring with Deep Brood frames

Are there any specific tips for doing this eg replacing the outer frames first?

Thanks

B.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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The frames you are using already are deep frames - 14x12's are jumbo or extra deep.
Try and work the deep frames out to the sides of the box, when you get in there in the spring the colony should have contracted on to the jumbo frames leaving the deeps empty so you can remove and replace with jumbo
 

Buzzo 

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Sorry i think ive used confusing language. i put in only smaller (DN4) frames and want to replace them with jumbo (DN5) in spring.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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Sorry i think ive used confusing language. i put in only smaller (DN4) frames and want to replace them with jumbo (DN5) in spring.
just go in to the box in spring and swap the empty frames for 14x12, work the others out to the sides and replace when vacated
 

ericbeaumont 

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Sorry i think ive used confusing language. i put in only smaller (DN4) frames and want to replace them with jumbo (DN5)
DN4 frames are deep National with a narrow top bar; DN5 are the same size deep Nationals but with a wider top bar.

SN frames are shallow National; 14x12 frames are just that: 14x12.
 

Hebeegeebee 

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It would make sense to refer to the 14 x 12 frames as, say, J5's (they have a wider top bar as the DN5's) so everyone knew what we were talking about. (Would just take a few frame suppliers to have a quick whatsapp discussion to agree on it)....

I would be inclined to do a demaree next spring, Put the DN4/5 frames in a brood box, with your 14 x 12 brood box on top once the weather is warm enough and feed them to draw comb. As soon as some comb has been drawn, put the queen upstairs with an excluder between the two boxes.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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I would be inclined to do a demaree next spring, Put the DN4/5 frames in a brood box, with your 14 x 12 brood box on top once the weather is warm enough and feed them to draw comb.
That's not a Demarree - that's a modified Bailey comb change
 

oliver90owner 

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Buzzo, you need to understand that 14 x 12 frames are National frames. There are shallows, deeps and extra deeps. Some call the shallows super (or even supper :)). The deeps are erroneously referred to a ‘standard’ (probably because they used to the generally used frame size for brood boxes) and brood frames (again erroneously). Extra deeps are also called 14 x 12 or jumbo frames.

Any box can be used either for the brooding chamber or as a honey box, but most brood boxes are likely still deeps (although extra-deeps have become much more popular in the last few years). When I changed to 14 x 12, about 20 years ago, everyone in my beekeeing society strongly advised against it - but many of them used a ‘brood and a half’ for most of the season!

Likewise any of the three sizes of frame/box can be used as a super. 14 x 12s full of honey are very heavy!

Also a shallow placed under a deep is, by definition, a ‘nadir’ - not a super.

It’s like hatching and emerging, too. Eggs hatch to produce larvae (actually that is a bit debatable) and bees emerge from capped cells after metamohosis. Again sloppy terminolgy passed on by those that don't know any better, to more new beeks who then don’t know any better.
 

Buzzo 

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i like your shallows, deeps and extra deeps . i wish suppliers used the same terms as you !
 

Boston Bees 

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Never heard anyone use extra deep, all I've heard them called is 14x12.
Correct. Extra deep is a made up term.

I think they should call 14x12s "Jumbo nationals", with JN4 (etc) as the code number to follow on from SN4 and DN4.
 
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Hebeegeebee 

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Correct. Extra deep is a made up term.

I think they should call 14x12s "Jumbo nationals", with JN4 (etc) as the code number to follow on from SN4 and DN4.
That works better than just a J. The 14 x 12's only come with a wider top bar - making it a JN5. I have used the thinner top bars (making a JN4) and they perform the same. The weakest part is always where the side bars fit in, where the wiid is quite weak.
 

oliver90owner 

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Erichalfbee 

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They’ve been called extra deeps here lots of times though I’ve always known them as 14x12
Now shallows are a different fish depending on where they are 😉
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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They’ve been called extra deeps here lots of times
And I've heard them called that lots of times in other places, not just this forum, if anything, I've probably heard them called that more often than Jumbos
 

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