refugees welcome

[psafloyd]

Well .. their loss could be someone else's gain .. at present Germany seem to be welcoming these people with open arms so they must see an economic benefit alongside the philanthropic aspect.

Germany has the fastest ageing population in Europe and is dependant –-as we all are –-upon immigration.

That is a fact and if you don't like it, be prepared to spend a lot more on public services should the Tories ever close the door on immigrants.

 

[psafloyd]

Perhaps if the NHS stopped allowing their doctors and facilities to be used for private practices by the same NHS doctors treating NHS patients in the morning and then treating paying customers later in the same day (and supplementing their already substantial salaries) it wouldn't be such an issue. The NHS need to make a stance on this. Either you are work only for them or you work full time only for the private sector. Stop them drawing two salaries.
Poor dears are so tired from their duel jobs they need weekends off to give them time to recover from the weight of all that money..

Interesting idea, JBM. But why should they be forced to only work in the public sector? Surely they could have a split role which is pro-rated?

And what about firemen? Most of those have two jobs, or at least a lucrative sideline, because their shift patterns give them big chunks of time off.

What about anyone else in the public sector? Should they be prohibited from taking on a second job if they chose to?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Interesting idea, JBM. But why should they be forced to only work in the public sector? Surely they could have a split role which is pro-rated?

Fine to have a sideline - but not when it impinges on your main one (like a case I know of a fireman on permanent nights who was at one time too tired to function as he had been very busy that day in his motor repair business) it is wrong that some consultants will facilitate a private patient jumping an NHS queue to get an MRI scan (and not paying for it) fact! it was my cousin.
I have no issues with the surgeon who at the end of his working day goes to the local private hospital and does a few minor ops on the side.
Or any pow level public servant wsho has to take a second job to supplement his meagre income.

 

[MartinL]

Interesting idea, JBM. But why should they be forced to only work in the public sector? Surely they could have a split role which is pro-rated?

And what about firemen? Most of those have two jobs, or at least a lucrative sideline, because their shift patterns give them big chunks of time off.

What about anyone else in the public sector? Should they be prohibited from taking on a second job if they chose to?

The Police aren't allowed to have a second job & we pay most of then to sit on their "not so slim" backsides all day.

 

[MartinL]

Germany has the fastest ageing population in Europe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . That is a fact and if you don't like it, . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Surely everyone is ageing at the same speed?

 

[madasafish]

Surely everyone is ageing at the same speed?

Well yes: but if you have fewer children born in Germany - as a % of the population - than say the UK, the average age in Germany will rise faster than in the UK..

http://tinyurl.com/q9klnpl

See Methodology / Metadata
EUROPOP2013 — Population projections at national level (ESMS metadata file — proj_13n_esms)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

SWMBOis trying to fix that issue by not getting any older - I'm just going to skip the ageing bit and go straight for my second childhood (SWMBO says that if I soil myself, i know where the washing machine is!!)

 

[mbc]

Well .. their loss could be someone else's gain .. at present Germany seem to be welcoming these people with open arms so they must see an economic benefit alongside the philanthropic aspect. With our Government currently telling our doctors that they are going to be looking at 7 day patient/doctor accessibility in the near future perhaps we should be advertising in Syria for qualified doctors to join our NHS ... drain all the doctors (and other professional people) from a country which, as you say, seems intent on returning to the stone age ... let them return if they wish but those who wish to stay in the real world should be ENCOURAGED to leave not just be welcomed when they do ...

Not sure I like this, surely we should be doing everything in our power to look after these refugees in the short term, but in the medium to long term working towards a healthy, stable and safe Syria which will need it's own medical staff and where the vast majority of displaced Syrians will feel safe enough to return to. I imagine there are far too many avoidable fatalities there now due to lack of medical care.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I do think that genuine asylum seekers/refugees will go back once things have stabilised 'back home' I see first hand people coming over here and claiming asylum - I also see a lot of people asking to go home (a lot can't just jump on the next plane as we have their passports) and many will fund their own returns - but does it matter if we help them? but the racist scum that now populate UKIP and other like them don't want to see that and the press aren't interested as it doesn't sell 'copy'

 

[madasafish]

I do think that genuine asylum seekers/refugees will go back once things have stabilised 'back home' I see first hand people coming over here and claiming asylum - I also see a lot of people asking to go home (a lot can't just jump on the next plane as we have their passports) and many will fund their own returns - but does it matter if we help them? but the racist scum that now populate UKIP and other like them don't want to see that and the press aren't interested as it doesn't sell 'copy'

As net migration is a +ve figure and has been increasing for years http://tinyurl.com/pffmkgh

they have a right to be concerned when most migrants end up in heavily populated metropolitan areas where there are housing shortages.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20713380

 

[pargyle]

Not sure I like this, surely we should be doing everything in our power to look after these refugees in the short term, but in the medium to long term working towards a healthy, stable and safe Syria which will need it's own medical staff and where the vast majority of displaced Syrians will feel safe enough to return to. I imagine there are far too many avoidable fatalities there now due to lack of medical care.

Yes ...I do understand your point .. but the last few years have seen an exponential growth in the likes of ISIS and fundamentalism in general and I can also understand that there are many 'professional' people who fear for their lives under a regime that seems intent on returning to an age where women were viewed as possessions and the penalty of laws could be imposed merely on the whim of a local despot. Where education is limited to religious teaching and where modern ideas are not only discouraged but are penalised under the law.

Should we not make it easier for them to remove themselves from a threatening future and offer them a place to use their talents elsewhere ... I cannot see the situation in the middle east improving in the foreseeable future ... Syria is just the tip of the iceberg ... The West's past record of meddling in middle east politics generally has a dismal record and whilst I would like to be optimistic the current mass exodus does not bode well for the future.

ISIS is an organisation that is actively set on a path that they believe will lead to the end of the world and subsequently each devout Moslem's place in heaven. They are gathering momentum from a deluded and disenfranchised section of the Moslem populous .. it will be difficult to reverse such ideas as are being fed out to the followers.

It must be really bad if people with long standing businesses and professional careers choose to leave everything behind to seek a safer, secure future outside of their homeland and often face dangerous journeys to make the transition. We cannot begin to comprehend what it must be like ...

 

[mbc]

Yes ...I do understand your point .. but the last few years have seen an exponential growth in the likes of ISIS and fundamentalism in general and I can also understand that there are many 'professional' people who fear for their lives under a regime that seems intent on returning to an age where women were viewed as possessions and the penalty of laws could be imposed merely on the whim of a local despot. Where education is limited to religious teaching and where modern ideas are not only discouraged but are penalised under the law.

Should we not make it easier for them to remove themselves from a threatening future and offer them a place to use their talents elsewhere ... I cannot see the situation in the middle east improving in the foreseeable future ... Syria is just the tip of the iceberg ... The West's past record of meddling in middle east politics generally has a dismal record and whilst I would like to be optimistic the current mass exodus does not bode well for the future.

ISIS is an organisation that is actively set on a path that they believe will lead to the end of the world and subsequently each devout Moslem's place in heaven. They are gathering momentum from a deluded and disenfranchised section of the Moslem populous .. it will be difficult to reverse such ideas as are being fed out to the followers.

It must be really bad if people with long standing businesses and professional careers choose to leave everything behind to seek a safer, secure future outside of their homeland and often face dangerous journeys to make the transition. We cannot begin to comprehend what it must be like ...

That's depressing P, I'd like to think that the madness will pass and the majority of these people will come to their senses as they see all the good in the world fleeing from their like.

 

[pargyle]

That's depressing P, I'd like to think that the madness will pass and the majority of these people will come to their senses as they see all the good in the world fleeing from their like.

Yes ... I find it depressing as well ...and it becomes more so when you read about the influence that ISIS is having amongst some elements of the Moslem community across the world and how the mantra that they preach of a single caliphate encompassing the whole world is finding undue credence amongst so many young moslems.

A quarter of the world's population are Moslem ...1.6 billion .. of which over 60% are under 30 years of age and Isis are targeting their message very specifically at the younger Moslems - they see 'conversion' of the next generation as the key to their ultimate goal.

Many of these young people feel disconnected from Western society and see an appeal in living in a single fundamentalist Moslem state where they can wait for and work towards the apocalypse .. they already control large tracts of Iraq and Syria where they have free reign. Their stated goal is the eradication of the infidel and a world ruled by the Caliph.

I find it difficult to see how this can be countered except by allowing those who are not being indoctrinated and who wish to live in a less restrictive society to leave and to assist them as fully as possible. If this leaves behind a deprived community then perhaps this will paint a more realistic picture of a world led by the Caliph. I think only the physical discrediting of the religious fervour preached by Isis will have an effect ... I don't think the madness will pass of its own volition ... I sincerely hope that I am wrong.

 

[mbc]

It'll pass, it all seems a bit loveless. What must their mums think to all the brutality and loss?

 

[BeeJayBee]

... I don't think the madness will pass of its own volition ... I sincerely hope that I am wrong.

The world has seen that sort of madness before, it rarely goes away all on its own.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And while all this is going on we seem to be oblivious to the terrible things the Israelis are doing out there and in Palestine - against Moslems and Christians

 

[Ely]

So. How do the government distinguish between refugees that truly need our help and Isis crackpots disguised as refugees? Could end up doing the wrong thing for the right reason and see a few hundred people blown up in our towns.

 

[BeeJayBee]

How do the government distinguish between refugees that truly need our help and Isis crackpots disguised as refugees?

The simplest answer is that nobody can, because our system is based on trust and the belief that people are truthful when they give their name, age and place of birth etc.. We baulk at the idea of fingerprints on ID cards, and tend to dislike and distrust the idea of DNA being used as identification because we are wary of what else that data could be used for.

Some (just a few) of these people who turn up as refugees, the ones who are wily and may have something to hide or have a hidden agenda, turn up with nothing - not even clothes, so they can't ever be traced back to any particular part of the world. They are who they say they are, and are the age they say they are. They are then given documents that prove their story.

I get a new passport when I ask for one simply because I've previously had one. The first forms I filled in had to be countersigned by people who knew me, and who could confirm I was who I said I was - or who my parents said I was. All this supported what is written on a birth certificate - something that can easily be bought for a few pounds. How many times is a birth certificate cross-referenced against a death certificate during the passport application process?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So. How do the government distinguish between refugees that truly need our help and Isis crackpots disguised as refugees? Could end up doing the wrong thing for the right reason and see a few hundred people blown up in our towns.

Can't really comment on an open forum (although Teresa May almost let the cat out the bag a couple of years ago) but most people (if not all) have a 'history' there are myriads of checks in place, you don't honestly believe we just stand there at the border with a goody bag of toiletries and a clean pair of knickers, hand it to them, indicate the way out and say 'help yourself Osama!.

I honestly do think now that they picked on the wrong newspaper when they shut down the Sunday sport - IMHO people who read the daily mail should be dragged out into the streets and thrashed with a damp teatowel!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I get a new passport when I ask for one simply because I've previously had one. The first forms I filled in had to be countersigned by people who knew me, and who could confirm I was who I said I was - or who my parents said I was. All this supported what is written on a birth certificate - something that can easily be bought for a few pounds. How many times is a birth certificate cross-referenced against a death certificate during the passport application process?

Nowadays all applicants for a new passport are called in to a face to face interview which could last ten minutes or a couple of hours - not our department but they work downstairs four days a week and occasionally we get called down for the blatantly suspect ones!!