Reducing Swarm Tendencies

[beenovice]

Are swarm tendencies controllable?
There is lots of talk on here about swarm likelihood, and ensuring they have enough space, but if bees were presented with the ideal conditions, i.e ample space, ample warmth, ample stores, healthy queen, would there still be a tendency to swarm? I appreciate how survival instinct would kick in if there was a failing queen for supercedure etc, but if everything was perfect for them, would they still want to go?
I guess really my question relates to my own hive. I did an inspection over the weekend. BIAS on 8 frames. Good laying patterns. Apparent space, Stores, but I also found drone brood! Is this an indication they are thinking about swarming, or are drones present in all colonies regardless of conditions? Can I do any more to change their mind? double brood etc.
My hive is a national, and I have just supered.
Thanks

 

[oliver90owner]

if everything was perfect for them, would they still want to go?

Think!

Increase in mumbers of colonies in an area. Replacement of colonies raided by bears, humans and other animals. Disease killing the colony.

Spreading across a land mass. Moving as climate change affects the habitat.

It would always need more than two offspring per couple if humans simply paired for life, just to maintain the numbers. Nothing different with the colony being considered as a super organism.

I don't know how they would reproduce if they did not swarm - do you?

 

[Finman]

.
Swarming is the habit of honey bee to reproduce. It is very natural ability.
If the creature does not have reproduction ABILITY, it dies out.

Non swarming habit is an abnormality made by human selection. I call it gene error.

Another gene error made by human is calm and non stinging strains. In nature reproduction and skill of stinging are very necessary.

When bee strain are not pure, their often get the gene errors healed and they get their natural instincst back. That is why mongrels are difficult to control and F2 crossings too. F2 has only 25% of strains original genes.

Yesterday I hear about German Carniolans which do not even do queen cells. They need special arrangements to get new queens.

.

.

 

[Finman]

.
Beenovice, if you want a non swarming hive, it is almost impossible. With your one hive you have no breeding and sting control. Breeding means selecting and you have no material to select.

If you buy an "non swarming" queen, there is no quearantee, that it does not swarm.

It is very sure, that if you take daughters from swarmed hive, you get 2 swarms next summer

So better to learn swarming control and do inspection every week during swarming time.

Here is a good paper: https://agdev.anr.udel.edu/maarec/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Swarm_Prev_Control_PM.pdf

And cutted wing is good "feature" of queen.

.

 

[beenovice]

if everything was perfect for them, would they still want to go?

Think!

Increase in mumbers of colonies in an area. Replacement of colonies raided by bears, humans and other animals. Disease killing the colony.

Spreading across a land mass. Moving as climate change affects the habitat.

It would always need more than two offspring per couple if humans simply paired for life, just to maintain the numbers. Nothing different with the colony being considered as a super organism.

I don't know how they would reproduce if they did not swarm - do you?

OK fair point, There will always be a tendency to swarm. So what I have to do is manage that tendency so that I don't lose any bees. I read on here somewhere that a national "should" provide enough space for a "normal" colony. I don't really want to go to double brood, but I will if you think it would help. What I would rather do is keep as one colony, until my hand is forced if queen cells are produced. In my opinion, this would maximise potential honey, and hopefully not lose any bees.

Does that sound logical in any way shape or form?

 

[Meg]

Hi Beenovice,

If they really want to swarm then it is extremely difficult to stop them , but as the 2 posters above have put in their own inimitable fashion it is the natural way of increase and so in a way, a good indication of a healthy hive.

I too have drone brood in about half of my colonies at the moment and am not worried that they are thinking about swarming. A level of drones is normal in a healthy hive.

For years in the UK, bees were kept in skeps and the beekeeper made increase by collecting the swarms that issued so encouraging the swarming trait. Now with many beekeepers being in built up areas swarming is often frowned upon for social reasons. It does tend to mean that the honey crop goes out the window or is seriously reduced too.

'Controlling swarming tendencies' or managing your bees to reduce the possibility of swarming is what you want an answer to I think. If your colony was mine and I had no drawn brood comb (as I think you haven't looking at earlier posts), then I would remove the super and queen excluder and add another brood box with foundation in straight on top. To help speed things up a bit I would probably lift 2 combs of brood (open) from the bottom box in to the top box (forces bees into the top box to keep it warm) and dummy up the frames in the bottom box - dummy board, insulation or sheet of cardboard if no other equipment. Removing the super makes them concentrate on the 2nd brood box and also keeps them warmer to help them produce the wax. A feed of thin (1:1) syrup would also help to get them to draw the comb out. They can concentrate on collecting pollen when they are flying out then.

Doing the above would give lots more space for the queen to lay and for the bees and brood to live in. This should help in swarm prevention as the colony does not feel crowded and desperate to move home. Once most of the combs are drawn, then add the queen excluder and the super back above.

Later on, you can do a split if you want more colonies, or keep them on double brood if the queen is laying well. Big colonies tend to collect more honey and even 'though they eat more, this generally means more honey stored as well. Up to you, but not something to worry about now.

Happy beekeeping.

Meg

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but I also found drone brood! Is this an indication they are thinking about swarming, or are drones present in all colonies regardless of conditions?

Colonies will always have drones in the summer - a 'happy colony' aims for about 20% drone comb in the brood during the normal season (they're there for the benefit of other colonies not just their own)

 

[Meg]

Sorry, took me ages to do last reply, so in addition - OK, you don't really want to go double brood, but if you do for a couple of months, then you can always drop back to a single box later and get rid of the older comb at the same time.

More than one colony is a VERY good idea for any beekeeper 'though so a split would be a good option later.

Meg

 

[beenovice]

Sorry, took me ages to do last reply, so in addition - OK, you don't really want to go double brood, but if you do for a couple of months, then you can always drop back to a single box later and get rid of the older comb at the same time.

More than one colony is a VERY good idea for any beekeeper 'though so a split would be a good option later.

Meg

Meg, firstly thanks for the advice. You seem to be a fan of the double brood option. Are they harder to work with? This is only my second summer with bees. If I were to go to double brood, and let them concentrate on drawing brood comb and building a larger nest, would I be saying goodbye to a honey crop this year?
I do want to develop hive number, but I would also like a modest crop.
Worst case scenario is that I lose half my bees I suppose.

 

[Meg]

Hi Beenovice,

Yes, I am a fan of double brood as it means I can always keep my options open and change my mind if things didn't happen as I planned! Being somewhat challenged with regard to stature I find bigger boxes harder to deal with so stick with standard National brood boxes. I keep about half of my colonies on 1 box (poorer site) and the rest on double or one at the bottom and the other removed upstairs for queen rearing ( a few years away for you yet).

I know people moan about having to check more frames for queen cells, but to be honest, as a quick check if there are none along the bottom of the frames of the upper brood box, you have a fighting chance of not having too many elsewhere (Tin hat on for those that wnat to 'discuss'). As you only have one colony at present I would think you will be wanting to spend the time looking and learning anyway.

If yu go double brood soon, then you could keep a large colony this way into July and so (weather and forage being right) stand a good chance of getting a crop of honey. Split then and you have two boxes of brood comb already so easier to get a mated queen and build up the weaker half of the split ready for winter. Possibly a win win situation. "The best laid plans of mice and men......"and women....

Fingers crossed and you will have fun!

Meg

 

[Swarm]

One thing I'd add though Meg, is that a very large colony can be a bit intimidating, especially for a novice.
I generally inspect the top chamber only unless cells are seen, in which case I go through the bottom as well. Various ways to make things easier if they are a bit moody, like covering the bottom box and taking the top box aside to inspect.

 

[Haughton Honey]

I agree with swarm.

If you have an intimidating double brood colony (or even an aggressive single brood colony) then move the brood box a good 10-15 yards away to inspect.

You'll find that you get less bother from the flying bees and will be more relaxed in your inspection.

 

[sunhivebee]

.
Swarming is the habit of honey bee to reproduce. It is very natural ability.
If the creature does not have reproduction ABILITY, it dies out.

Non swarming habit is an abnormality made by human selection. I call it gene error.

Another gene error made by human is calm and non stinging strains. In nature reproduction and skill of stinging are very necessary.

When bee strain are not pure, their often get the gene errors healed and they get their natural instincst back. That is why mongrels are difficult to control and F2 crossings too. F2 has only 25% of strains original genes.

Yesterday I hear about German Carniolans which do not even do queen cells. They need special arrangements to get new queens.

.

.

Brilliant! Specially brilliant bits in bold.
I would add book recommendations to new beekeepers: J. Tautz & M.Winston.

 

[user 6228]

Are swarm tendencies controllable?
There is lots of talk on here about swarm likelihood, and ensuring they have enough space, but if bees were presented with the ideal conditions, i.e ample space, ample warmth, ample stores, healthy queen, would there still be a tendency to swarm? I appreciate how survival instinct would kick in if there was a failing queen for supercedure etc, but if everything was perfect for them, would they still want to go?
I guess really my question relates to my own hive. I did an inspection over the weekend. BIAS on 8 frames. Good laying patterns. Apparent space, Stores, but I also found drone brood! Is this an indication they are thinking about swarming, or are drones present in all colonies regardless of conditions? Can I do any more to change their mind? double brood etc.
My hive is a national, and I have just supered.
Thanks

Have you seen a swarm in flight ? its magnificent.

 

[sbisme]

Hi All
I know this is from last year and I am jumping in but did a search for double brood and this looked a good enough place to ask away,

I am heading into my second year and my one and only colony look to have made it through winter ok, bringing in loads of pollen today so hopefuly just need to keep an eye on the stores they will have made it, I am wanting to increase my colony size to two for this year, so my thought is to go for double brood and then split.

Is this a good idea for a new beek? or should I look at another way to increase my colony size? I have not yet done an inspection this year but from the traffic at the enterance they are looking good, and if I go for double drood do I put the empty box with foundation on top of the exhisting brood?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why not wait till they make swarm preparations and AS them.
You might get some honey even

Have a look here......Some great stuff if you click on download resource
http://www.wbka.com/making-increase/

I see Wally Shaw doesn't think my idea a good one

 

[sbisme]

Thanks EricA I will take a look

 

[Bosleeu]

.


Yesterday I hear about German Carniolans which do not even do queen cells. They need special arrangements to get new queens.

.

.

Was it word of mouth or can you point me to a Web reference please? I would really like to read more about this.

 

[Fatbee]

Brilliant! Specially brilliant bits in bold.
I would add book recommendations to new beekeepers: J. Tautz & M.Winston.

I agree, Tautz is good at explaining bee behaviour. I also now take the view that my bees will try to swarm so mix proactive and reactive swarm control rather than hoping for the best - find it reduces the stress łevels!

Another thing is about reading the weather and forage conditions. Wet or cold spring and summers doing an increase by splitting you might have to accept taking a hit on your yield; whereas a good year like last year you would have been able to have both. It all depends.

 

[Excession]

Engineering bees not to swarm? What could possibly go wrong?