Real honey at RHS Wisley,

[ericbeaumont]

Specification: Max temperature and time. Simple.

Similarly if we consider straining and filtering, it's the size of the particles that can go through that would, presumably, be the differentiator. Straining through a standard 2 part stainless thing from Thormes or the other usual suppliers might be fine (should be fine) - passing through a finer mesh might be a no no for something that is to be considered as un-processed.

Specification: Size of the particle that can go through the filter. Simple.

That's the right sort of straightforward spec, Adam; would need to be adopted, developed and promoted by a progressive organisation. TS? BBKA? BFA?

 

[charlievictorbravo]

And on the subject of mis-labelling of honey I found a jar of Littleover Apiaries honey in Sainsburys.

The label on the honey states "Produce of EC and non-EC countries" and also that the honey is unblended. These two statements are clearly contradictory. There appears to be an attempt to conceal the country of origin in breach of section 17 of The Honey (England) Regulations 2015 which requires the country of origin to be stated on the label.

I contacted Littleover and received a very unsatisfactory response, along the lines of "it might be from Bulgaria or it might be from Brazil ... it is not a blend".

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1348/regulation/17/made

The design of the label gives the impression to an unwary consumer that the honey is English.

In addition, the food regulations (Regulation (EU) No 1169/2011 of the European Parliament etc.) require that the name or business name and address of the food business operator is shown but I see no address - just a number and a post code - does that count as an address?

The other issue could be the use of the word "organic" when they don't know where it comes from. Do Bulgaria and Brazil have "organic" designations that meet the UK's definitions of organic? There is, I believe, an intention to deceive but it might be a sufficiently grey area that Trading Standards would not pursue it.

Anybody live near Litchurch in Derby and know these "Littleover" people?

CVB

 

[ics19]

The other issue could be the use of the word "organic"...

Not just any old organic, it's PURE as well - is that the same as RAW?

The label says they're sited in an organic field, so I'm sure there's a high fence to keep the foragers in.

 

[Repwoc]

it's PURE as well - is that the same as RAW?

No.

 

[Buzzlodge]

I see no address - just a number and a post code - does that count as an address?

In Ireland, where post codes are unique to each address, I understand that the the postcode is acceptable but I'm personally not aware of anybody using just that.

 

[enrico]

Blimey we are ripping this bunch to bits. My arguement would be that they are perfectly traceable through a post code and a web address. ...... Tin hat firmly on....

 

[ericbeaumont]

In addition, the food regulations (Regulation (EU) No 1169/2011 of the European Parliament etc.) require that the name or business name and address of the food business operator is shown but I see no address - just a number and a post code - does that count as an address?

The other issue could be the use of the word "organic" when they don't know where it comes from. Do Bulgaria and Brazil have "organic" designations that meet the UK's definitions of organic? There is, I believe, an intention to deceive but it might be a sufficiently grey area that Trading Standards would not pursue it.

The EU directive is plain but ambiguous (how appropriate): ...indication of the following particulars shall be mandatory: Article 9, 1(h) the name or business name and address of the food business operator referred to in Article 8(1)

What defines an address? Website? Email? Home address? PO Box? Ex-wife's sister's holiday home? Harrow BKA investigated and produced a useful document here. However, the writer made a personal interpretation of the EU regs and concluded that it is clear that just a phone number is not enough and as a minimum the FBO address should be valid for posting a letter. Well, it's not clear to me and I disagree (no surprises there) and have at the back of my mind a different meaning: that the Food Business Operator (the beekeeper) should be able to be contacted.

With that in mind, and accepting that the EU regs make no specification of the type of address required, we have free rein to choose. Can this next example fulfil the requirements? At a farm shop in west Surrey last week (down the A3 from RHS Wisley) I found a jar of local honey on sale with a postcode as an address and no country of origin stated (it included the name of the local village in which the hives were located). It may be that there is only one building or dwelling at that postcode, but if not, without a house number or name it would be useless and is a clear contravention of the regs, as is the lack of Produce of England or similar. This discovery is not unusual, which you will find if nosing in farm shops and farmers' markets and the like.

I reckon that a house number and postcode would be sufficient to enable TS or a customer to contact the FBO, aka the beekeeper, but bear in mind that such minimal information would also enable a disgruntled person to arrive on your doorstep and offload to the first person to open the door.

 

[enrico]

Try sending a letter to a name and postcode. It will arrive! Even if there are more than one premises in that post code.
E

 

[For want of a better word]

Try sending a letter to a name and postcode. It will arrive! Even if there are more than one premises in that post code.
E

Post code in this neck of the woods would take you down a dark green lane and into a middle of a field.
With any luck you could ask the old guy sitting on the gate playing his banjo for directions.
Usual reply is I could give you directions, but I would not start from here!
The DPD driver leaves our parcels at the local Post Office, and emails us that it is there.
Seems the honey importing and bottling and packing brigade have something they do not wish to share with their buyers and to align with the others just give a generic post code?

 

[ericbeaumont]

Anybody live near Litchurch in Derby and know these "Littleover" people?

Littleover are well-established producers; the company was set up by ex-South African army Captain Tony Spacey in the 90s and seems to me (based on nothing but the website and the fact they've supplied shops and supermarkets for years) committed and professional.

Organic honey status usually relates to land status within 3km of the hives and we must conclude that Littleover found an organic farmer with that spec. Organic farming is regulated by EU law; here are German organic honey standards, the gist of which is that Organic honey refers to honey produced naturally, without the use of chemical substances in any part of the producing/processing/packaging processes. The EU has established an integrated regulation (EC 834/2007), which is mandatory for all member states, regarding organically produced products. It sets requirements for every stage of the production and processing. In addition, regulation EC 889/2008 (articles 9, 13, 18, 19, 25, 38, 44, 47, 77, 78) incorporates several relevant factors for beekeeping, ranging from the natural treatment of bees’ health issues to the colour quality of the containers for honey storage. In order to label your honey exported to the German market as organic, certification will be required. The Littleover website states that although not all of our honeys are organic, they are all produced to organic standards.

Tony Spacey ruffled UK beekeeping feathers when he gave an interview in 2007 to an ecology magazine (can't recall, and the online interview has been hijacked by bots) in which he summed up UK hobby beekeeping as incompetent. Whoo! That woke them up! More recently he was blunt with NZ manuka producers and though he's now retired from the honey company, runs a cigar business in Derby (you guessed, ruffled feathers again).

 

[Madge]

Post code in this neck of the woods would take you down a dark green lane and into a middle of a field. ...

Post code alone is insufficient, but postcode preceded by house name or number is enough to identify an address. I’ve posted and received letters addressed like that.

 

[ics19]

Tony Spacey ruffled UK beekeeping feathers when he gave an interview in 2007 to an ecology magazine (can't recall, and the online interview has been hijacked by bots)

There's an archive of the/an interview here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090619090318/jmcsmith.co.uk/2007/05/22/bees-mean-money-profile-of-the-uks-most-succesful-apiarist

Quite a character. Presumably banning the unlicensed/amateur beekeepers will, along with all the other "better" aspects, be better for someone's pocket too?

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Littleover are well-established producers; the company was set up by ex-South African army Captain Tony Spacey in the 90s and seems to me (based on nothing but the website and the fact they've supplied shops and supermarkets for years) committed and professional.

Organic honey status usually relates to land status within 3km of the hives and we must conclude that Littleover found an organic farmer with that spec. Organic farming is regulated by EU law; here are German organic honey standards, the gist of which is that Organic honey refers to honey produced naturally, without the use of chemical substances in any part of the producing/processing/packaging processes. The EU has established an integrated regulation (EC 834/2007), which is mandatory for all member states, regarding organically produced products. It sets requirements for every stage of the production and processing. In addition, regulation EC 889/2008 (articles 9, 13, 18, 19, 25, 38, 44, 47, 77, 78) incorporates several relevant factors for beekeeping, ranging from the natural treatment of bees’ health issues to the colour quality of the containers for honey storage. In order to label your honey exported to the German market as organic, certification will be required. The Littleover website states that although not all of our honeys are organic, they are all produced to organic standards.

Tony Spacey ruffled UK beekeeping feathers when he gave an interview in 2007 to an ecology magazine (can't recall, and the online interview has been hijacked by bots) in which he summed up UK hobby beekeeping as incompetent. Whoo! That woke them up! More recently he was blunt with NZ manuka producers and though he's now retired from the honey company, runs a cigar business in Derby (you guessed, ruffled feathers again).

Thanks for that research Eric.

The Littleover website mentions imports from New Zealand but the country of origin of most of their honeys on the website is not revealed so the suggestion that they receive supplies from Bulgaria and Brazil is "interesting".

I get the impression that the company sails pretty close to the wind with regard to providing accurate information on its labels and website but just on the legal side of the thin line between legal and illegal.

For sheer mistakes in labelling, there are many examples I've seen in tourist shops around Cornwall that take some beating. While they are annoying, they are often innocent mistakes from somebody selling a few tens of jars a year. I expect a higher standard from a company selling many tens of thousands of jars.

CVB

 

[Hebeegeebee]

And on the subject of mis-labelling of honey I found a jar of Littleover Apiaries honey in Sainsburys.

The label on the honey states "Produce of EC and non-EC countries" and also that the honey is unblended. These two statements are clearly contradictory. There appears to be an attempt to conceal the country of origin in breach of section 17 of The Honey (England) Regulations 2015 which requires the country of origin to be stated on the label.

I contacted Littleover and received a very unsatisfactory response, along the lines of "it might be from Bulgaria or it might be from Brazil ... it is not a blend".

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1348/regulation/17/made

The design of the label gives the impression to an unwary consumer that the honey is English.

If the honey is not blended then it would be from Bulgaria OR Brazil, not both, so the label is incorrect unless it said "Batches of honey are the produce of EU and non EU countries"

 

[Hebeegeebee]

That's the right sort of straightforward spec, Adam; would need to be adopted, developed and promoted by a progressive organisation. TS? BBKA? BFA?

Ahh a progressive organization. I wonder which one that would be.

 

[MerryBee]

I wasnt making an issue of the address given. The post code is for an industrial estate and no 16 takes us to unit 16 therein, so I dont have a problem with that.

Its the country of origin that is at issue, and the wording on the label is CLEARLY in breach of the labelling regulations as Littleover confirmed to me that the honey is not blended.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1348/regulation/17/made

Their exact words were :

Thank you for your email. We produce honey from all around the world, (EU and non-EU) for example we have organic wildflower honey from Bulgaria and Brazil, orange blossom from Spain, Greek honey, Mexican honey etc, if you take a look at our on line shop you will see them all. They are not ‘blends’.

There is no excuse for an organisation big enough to be supplying supermarkets to be getting this wrong. I think it can only be a deliberate attempt to hide the origin of the honey from the unwary consumer.

 

[MerryBee]

I will take it up with Derbyshire trading standards and see what response i get.

 

[ericbeaumont]

There's an archive of the/an interview here:https://web.archive.org/web/20090619090318/jmcsmith.co.uk/2007/05/22/bees-mean-money-profile-of-the-uks-most-succesful-apiarist Quite a character. Presumably banning the unlicensed/amateur beekeepers will, along with all the other "better" aspects, be better for someone's pocket too?

Thanks for digging, ICS. Though Tony's words are thirteen years old his criticisms of UK beekeeping are still potent and valid, especially his wish to ban unlicensed beekeeping: We are the last western country that allows unlicensed beekeeping, he explains. The sooner we ban it the better for the environment, the better for the bees and certainly the better for the honey industry. Such is the lack of personal privacy these days that it can hardly be argued that licensing beekeepers would be a big deal, and the desire to classify bees as livestock - requiring registration - still pops up its head occasionally.

Tony's criticisms and proposals not only held up a mirror to UK beekeeping but showed that opportunity existed - more so today - for us all to make the most of the fact that the UK imports roughly 88% of honey. There is plenty of room for any number of beekeepers to benefit, but by selling thirty jars for good money at the school fete the hobby beekeeper must accept their transformation to a Food Business Operator, and can no longer maintain innocence of the regs. that they think apply more to the big players. Isn't it time we drove a stake through the village-green-vicar image of local honey and local beekeeping?

CVB mentioned somebody selling a few tens of jars a year and a higher standard from a company selling many tens of thousands of jars and Merrybee says There is no excuse for an organisation big enough to be supplying supermarkets to be getting this wrong.

Why not invert those statements? Why not expect BKAs to train beekeepers to take professional pride in the product, to support each other by labelling to a higher standard and without getting it wrong with fashionable flannel? Let the supermarkets pull the wool; we don't have to join them.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I will take it up with Derbyshire trading standards and see what response i get.

I emailed beesmax.org six days ago to ask for the source of the added pollen, but no reply has yet arrived.

 

[E&MBees]

As a newbee, is there a reference guide for labels etc should I be in the position to sell honey later this year? I would like to avoid all the pitfalls etc mentioned in the above posts.