Re-queening nasty-------- hive

[JonnyPicklechin]

Exasperation, perspiration, desperation.....

* Apiary was very calm this morning for the first time in 10 days. Flying bees no longer at original site, moved hive, also calm (presumably as the only flyers are new bees....)

* Today is second day to find queen after losing her yesterday from my grasp, 90 minutes of searching, pairs of frames, QE filtering, re-search, re-search again. Not a thing.

* Moved hive back to old location, box by box, obviously new attack formations have begun, but I got in with it.

* Made executive decision: Combine NUC with nice queen above using newspaper as suggested. Put her in a cage. Even though old queen might be in there! What am I doing?! But I am doing it....

* So hive formation from floor up:
- Filled BB
- recent and hardly touched BB
-half filled super
-QE
-newspaper with holes
-BB with 5 frames BIAS/ OB, stores etc of NUC with laying and marked queen in cage between two frames.

Of course I have no idea what will happen. Jeff33 warned of having two queens but this is all I could think to do. Obviously they are separated by the QE.

Would appreciate comments if what I have done is OK or if I am asking for further trouble now we may have 2 x Qs after the news paper unite...

Yours, hot, bothered, stressed

The Bee Baptist of Fire

 

[Murox]

Doing good. If you had a second queen excluder you could "isolate" individual boxes and check for eggs from potential second queen more easily. The empty BB is normally in the lowest position, don't get excited about it though.

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Doing good. If you had a second queen excluder you could "isolate" individual boxes and check for eggs from potential second queen more easily. The empty BB is normally in the lowest position, don't get excited about it though.

Thanks for the encouragement.

I did have the newer BB there and just switched in the new config. It has has very little drawing of frames yet so hoped above would get them to develop....
...and accordingly there wont be any laying there so cannot isolate.

 

[mjt68]

Or if you pull out the QX you can use the new queen as bait to find the old one!

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Or if you pull out the QX you can use the new queen as bait to find the old one!

See I really did think about that when I was making manipulations. If the introduced queen is caged then she cannot get to her. How long before she seeks her out and will "nasty" stay there snapping at "cagey" until she can snap no more?

Maybe I let the combine happen with the paper...then when that looks good, remove the QE? Wait, what 20 minutes and then she should appear? If not then I know I am queenless and can remove tape and let cagey integrate...hey presto!

 

[enrico]

The only thing to watch for is that there is a big division between the old brood box and the new one, a whole super, they may carry on as two separate hives. That means a. They may not chew through the paper and or b. You may get a load of queen cells in the bottom box! Just a couple more things to frustrate you. But well done.......... Hey what could be the worse thing that could happen? Not much worse than already has!!!!!!

 

[jeff33]

Do not remove the QX, otherwise the evil queen (if still in there) will have another box to hide from you and make the release of new queen a big gamble.

As Enrico said, too much gap between the 2 colonies will reduce the pheromones and bottom bees may not sense the presence of a laying queen above. I would leave the hive alone for 3-4 days and when you open check the bottom box for emergency cells or signs of fresh eggs, larvae... If présent, Iam afraid your evil queen is still in there. If there are no signs of eggs remove every single emergency cells. Good luck, well done and keep us posted.

Is your good queen in an introduction cage or push in cage?

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Is your good queen in an introduction cage or push in cage?

https://www.beekeeping.co.uk/produc...esw83s7GAa78lp5NjeIpXhLK8EgdEIEhoCk94QAvD_BwE

One of these with a fondant stopper and currently tape over the end....

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

The only thing to watch for is that there is a big division between the old brood box and the new one, a whole super, they may carry on as two separate hives. That means a. They may not chew through the paper and or b. You may get a load of queen cells in the bottom box! Just a couple more things to frustrate you. But well done.......... Hey what could be the worse thing that could happen? Not much worse than already has!!!!!!

QCs in the bottom box would indicate supercedure and them telling me there is no queen, right? That would be a relief right?

 

[Beefriendly]

QCs in the bottom box would indicate supercedure and them telling me there is no queen, right? That would be a relief right?

If it's supercedure then the old queen is still there and the bees are sensing something wrong with her.
I can pass on an "almost fool proof" method for finding a queen, but it takes about 24 hours and requires another brood box and qx.

Move hive to one side and place extra brood box on floor.. Put two frames of brood together (or one stores and one brood) on their own in the spare brood box...now shake or brush all the rest of the bees into this box.
Put QX on top and put your original brood box on top of this .... rest of the nurse bees and most of the other bees will be in that 2nd box by the next morning., You will find your queen on one of the the two frames of brood....nearly always between them on one of the "hidden" faces......she has no where else to go.

 

[jeff33]

QCs in the bottom box would indicate supercedure and them telling me there is no queen, right? That would be a relief right?

With your queen flying off and all the re-shuffling you have done q cells will probably mean they are queenless at this stage and she didn't make it back to the hive. Good news indeed, they are emergency cells, not supercedure.

I wouldn't worry about doing BF manipulation as yet. Wait for a few days and if there are indeed eggs in the bottom box then think about it if you still can't find her.

 

[Murox]

https://www.beekeeping.co.uk/produc...esw83s7GAa78lp5NjeIpXhLK8EgdEIEhoCk94QAvD_BwE

One of these with a fondant stopper and currently tape over the end....

This style would keep her laying.
http://beekeepingforum.co.uk/picture.php?albumid=844&pictureid=3987

 

[citrus]

If it's supercedure then the old queen is still there and the bees are sensing something wrong with her.
I can pass on an "almost fool proof" method for finding a queen, but it takes about 24 hours and requires another brood box and qx.

Move hive to one side and place extra brood box on floor.. Put two frames of brood together (or one stores and one brood) on their own in the spare brood box...now shake or brush all the rest of the bees into this box.
Put QX on top and put your original brood box on top of this .... rest of the nurse bees and most of the other bees will be in that 2nd box by the next morning., You will find your queen on one of the the two frames of brood....nearly always between them on one of the "hidden" faces......she has no where else to go.

So just to clear up this in my own head .... when you say

'most of the other bees will be in that 2nd box by the next morning'

this is the spare bb you added at the bottom with ONLY two frames in and so that bb will be full of bees but the queen will be in the sandwich !

really like this ... its a combination of the divide and conquer and two frame trick

 

[Swarm]

So just to clear up this in my own head .... when you say

'most of the other bees will be in that 2nd box by the next morning'

this is the spare bb you added at the bottom with ONLY two frames in and so that bb will be full of bees but the queen will be in the sandwich !

really like this ... its a combination of the divide and conquer and two frame trick

No. It's an old method of finding elusive queens.
The nurse bees will move up through the excluder to cover the brood, the queen will hide between the two frames in the bottom box.

 

[citrus]

No. It's an old method of finding elusive queens.
The nurse bees will move up through the excluder to cover the brood, the queen will hide between the two frames in the bottom box.

ah ok so the bottom box (with the two frames) should be quiet with just the queen and her companions on the two frames ...guess there will be flying bees passing through on their way up to the supers above .. gotcha ..

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

This style would keep her laying.
http://beekeepingforum.co.uk/picture.php?albumid=844&pictureid=3987

Well noted....had not seen one of those. I bought last week one of these but its not here yet.....any road up I armoured her with what I have and am loath to bother them yet again. Will add the new one on Monday or Tuesday when in again.

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

If it's supercedure then the old queen is still there and the bees are sensing something wrong with her.
I can pass on an "almost fool proof" method for finding a queen, but it takes about 24 hours and requires another brood box and qx.

Move hive to one side and place extra brood box on floor.. Put two frames of brood together (or one stores and one brood) on their own in the spare brood box...now shake or brush all the rest of the bees into this box.
Put QX on top and put your original brood box on top of this .... rest of the nurse bees and most of the other bees will be in that 2nd box by the next morning., You will find your queen on one of the the two frames of brood....nearly always between them on one of the "hidden" faces......she has no where else to go.

Simple and effective. Have you used it often?

As mentioned, I am going to leave them be for now as I have been in there 4 times since Sunday, with two sessions of over 2 hours plus...So they are probably heavily p155ed off.

There are obviously still nasties about but with the big flyer bleed off they are much less, maybe 3 or 4 pingers now at up to 15 feet. Though one wonders how long a strong hive takes to get its new squadron of flyers up to full strength again...?

 

[Beefriendly]

Simple and effective. Have you used it often?

Not often these days, but in my earlier days!!!! When I have had to use it it has usually worked fine. One occasion she wasn't between the frames but with the frames out of the way and very few bees about she was easily spotted on the sides of the hive.

 

[Millet]

Concentrate on the movement of bees..do not look for brood eggs or anything.. solely look for the Queen..But do not look too hard ..she moves different...

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Concentrate on the movement of bees..do not look for brood eggs or anything.. solely look for the Queen..But do not look too hard ..she moves different...

Believe me Steve...I tried to be very zen. I did one complete round where I just repeated "queen, queen, queen" over and over like a mantra. I found the "zen zone" but no queen. Remember she flew off yesterday and I was searching from the moved hive site so she may have gone back to the box where the flying bees were being collected yesterday. Maybe she realise there was nowt there other, she went where lost queens go maybe?