Raping the planet

[MillMeadow]

Intense milk farming is a nightmare here. We have hundreds of tractor movements a day bringing in food, clearing muck, the only crop is maize. What happened to cows in fields?

People wanted cheap milk.

 

[The Poot]

Intense milk farming is a nightmare here. We have hundreds of tractor movements a day bringing in food, clearing muck, the only crop is maize. What happened to cows in fields?

They suffered from flatulence, apparently. Can’t have that.
Around here it’s largely the same - loads of tractor activity, but the emissions can’t be as bad as Daisy farting.
She still farts though, but in a shed.

 

[The Poot]

People wanted cheap milk.

Only some. The supermarkets want to offer cheap milk as a means of gaining footfall and with their muscle, keep the price they pay the farmers as low as they can get away with.
Most folk I talk to would willingly pay more to ensure proper husbandry.

 

[pargyle]

Intense milk farming is a nightmare here. We have hundreds of tractor movements a day bringing in food, clearing muck, the only crop is maize. What happened to cows in fields?

Like everything else in farming - the need to produce at ridiculously low prices, dictated by the major supermarkets and driven by consumers who want ever more convenient foods at prices that don't reflect the effort that goes into producing them in 'natural' ways.

You can't criticise the farmers - if the only way they can make a living with the pressure on retail prices is to mechanise and centralise production then that's the way they had to go. You can't mechanise and centralise when cows are in a field half a mile away - the days when a farmer brought his herd of 50 or 60 cows into the milking shed twice a day are in the most part gone.

You can still find farms like this - we have one locally who sells unpasturised milk and milk products direct to the public... but at a cost above what you would pay for them in the supermarket half a mile down the road.

Who is to blame ? We all are ...the quest for convenience, cheap food delivered to your door, fruit and veg that meets size and shape requirements and the perception of perfection in the eyes of the consumer. Our family is as guilty as the next ... whilst we try to buy ethically, eat locally produced food and produce some home grown food, there is a cost to this. Producing your own takes time, buying with a conscience costs money. We have some leeway in what we buy as a family, but I have an immense sympathy for those who cannot afford the cost.

The concentration of buying power in the supermarkets, from the day when Jack Cohen of Tesco said 'stack it high, sell it cheap' has had an immense effect on retailing. How many independent butchers, bakers, fishmongers, greengrocers, chemists, general stores etc. have disappeared from High Streets and villages in my lifetime ? Tens of thousands - who knows ... Margaret Thatcher said 'we are a nation of shopkeepers' - sadly that is no longer the case - Amazon and Ebay have had a hand in removing the 'specialist shops' that we used to see. Ironmongers and hardware shops who had that screw or sink plunger you needed, camera shops with knowledgeable staff to talk you through a purchase, bookshops that you could browse and read a few pages before investing in the book, Electrical shops that repaired as well as sold ...

A few survive but the vast majority will struggle unless they have a unique location, a loyal customer base and premises that are owned ... because there lies the next issue. Councils that see small businesses as a cash cow, ever increasing business rates and rents for council owned sites - reflected in private landlord rents. Out of town sites with a multiplicity of national retailers - surrounded by eateries, coffee shops and other encouragements to draw the customers in.

As a nation we walked blindfolded into this situation ... and successive governments encouraged us and enticed us away from a diverse retail environment.

Can we reverse the situation ? I fear not, the devil is out of the bag and we will never get him back in.

 

[enrico]

People wanted cheap milk.

Did they? That is a con. People will pay the going price for milk or drink less or waste less if more expensive. It is the supermarkets that want cheap milk because they put milk and bread ( daily essentials although not so much bread now ) at the far end of the shop so you have to walk through all the other items to get there. It is not that we want cheap milk it is that we need to buy it regularly. Had anyone ever asked you if you would pay more for milk and if you had to would you stop using it? Humans wanting cheap milk is the most quoted load of nonsense ever. Blame the supermarkets that use it to their advantage.
Sorry Poot, just saw your post after I typed this

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

we have a farm 'Local' to us (well, twelve miles away looking down on the Llwchwr estuary) they process all their milk on the farm and (starting off with one just off junction 48 of the M4) they have milk dispensing stands dotted around, one not far from us at Amanford) there is a glass bottle dispenser there and the milk is only £1.30 a litre, I usually buy a couple of litlrtes on Saturday morning when I pick up fresh bread, we don't drink much milk in Brynmair and sometimes the two litres will last a week (in fact, only last night I threw away the last cupful of the milk I'd bought on the 18th as it was finally on the turn)
It tickles me when I see boomers posting and reposting facebook post which starts something like "we didn't need to recycle in our days a as we had milk delivered by electric van in returnable glass bottles, deposits on pop bottles blah blah blahshit blah" when in fact it was that generation that embraced the throwaway society and demanded everything for near nothing, and still do.
After my grandmother died in 1969 my parents moved in with my grandfather to help run the business and when he died a few years later formally took over my grandfather's shop (dad had been running the milk delivery side for years, in fact, as a teenager I think he was the one who brought it over from his uncle's farm - delivering with a horse drawn float) We had the dairy, green grocers and dry goods grocery, and later a butcher counter when dad refurbished the early 1900s shop and turned it into the first 'supermarket' in the valley and even took orders, often by telephone! (or people would sometimes put the order in their empty milk bottles) and we delivered towards the end of the week. As a kid who loved gardening, my garden was almost geared to fresh lettuce production in the summer - a nice little earner for me!
Then the 'proper' supermarkets turned up in Amanford and people preferred the inconvenience of a six mile bus journey to save a few pence. by 1978 we were struggling, and I can't remember whether it was 1979 or 1980 (I know I was in secondary school) We closed our door for the last time - the shop became dad's carpentry workshop for a while (he worked on the buildings while my mother managed the shop, preparing the meat in the evenings as we were still paying off my grandfather's debts) When dad died, we sold the premises and since then it's been a butcher's shop again and is now a hairderessers (Waterloo house was build around 1900 and was a haberdashers rand eventually by my great grandfather's brother)

 

[MillMeadow]

Did they? That is a con. People will pay the going price for milk or drink less or waste less if more expensive. It is the supermarkets that want cheap milk because they put milk and bread ( daily essentials although not so much bread now ) at the far end of the shop so you have to walk through all the other items to get there. It is not that we want cheap milk it is that we need to buy it regularly. Had anyone ever asked you if you would pay more for milk and if you had to would you stop using it? Humans wanting cheap milk is the most quoted load of nonsense ever. Blame the supermarkets that use it to their advantage.
Sorry Poot, just saw your post after I typed this

I farm but I guess you know best.

 

[rossbyjove]

even before he managed to be elected leader, many in the party used to label him as the weather cock, apart from the obvious connotation of the second word it was obvious that he would change direction the moment the wind did. I warned my CLP members during the leadership election that they would rue the day they voted him in. Many, like me have now left the party (some were actually expelled - for no other reason apart from being good socialists)

Well said.
I left as well.
Refused point blank to hold my nose and vote for someone I loathed less than the others.
I've lived in blue rural areas most of my life and realised my vote has never counted for anything.
First time ever, I spoiled my ballot.
NOTA !

 

[rossbyjove]

I farm but I guess you know best.

Yes, the very same.
This evening my 18 yr old granddaughter informed me, that according to her A level studies in sociology, I am a Marxist. Never thought of Karl being my mentor. What has education come to . Poor lass was quite nonplussed when I said Karl Marx, who's that ? They are being taught to pass an exam rather than educated. The good news is that she is aware of that. I of course drive them nuts taking the other route and educate, sometimes.

My partner was a teacher and says exactly the same.
Don't think, pass the exam.
I managed the manifesto but Kapital remains half read and barely understood on the book shelf.
'Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.' - Groucho Marx

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

They are being taught to pass an exam rather than educated.

Don't blame the teaching. We're stuck with exams, though people never cease trying to improve them. Everyone knows how flawed they are (like democracy) but it's difficult to find an alternative. Exams are there to be passed. I remember being told: answer the question, don't try to educate the examiner.

 

[Penninetrader]

They suffered from flatulence, apparently. Can’t have that.
Around here it’s largely the same - loads of tractor activity, but the emissions can’t be as bad as Daisy farting.
She still farts though, but in a shed.

Farting is not the problem.they claim, it is another piece of the giant climate fraud, they will use this fraud to shut down or restrict farming and as with Bovaer in the feed chemically alter our consumption. As for the manure produced, that can be used to produce electricity and in some cases already does. The good news on that front goes further in that once it has gone through the process you have a clean fertilizer that can applied to fields and animals can graze on said fields almost immediately, unlike raw manure which contains much that would harm them until decomposed

 

[enrico]

I farm but I guess you know best.

So if you farm please tell me why you think we, the public, are demanding cheap milk? I certainly am not and I can't see how we, the public, are not in a position to do that. It must be down to the middle men. I am not saying I know best I am saying what I know about me, now please tell me how you know that I am demanding cheap milk. A good debate at the moment and I am not trying to upset you, just understand why these huge cattle sheds that need hundreds of tractor movements in a day seem to be a necessity.

 

[Macbear]

Don't blame the teaching. We're stuck with exams, though people never cease trying to improve them. Everyone knows how flawed they are (like democracy) but it's difficult to find an alternative. Exams are there to be passed. I remember being told: answer the question, don't try to educate the examiner.

I confess that I was a primary school teacher - retirement was such a relief having suffered national curriculum, political correctness etc. Encouraging the joy of learning to read and decent books, stirring enquiring minds about the locality and immediate environment and having fun were stamped on by politicians and their ofsted enforcers. My first school had its own allotment and the pupils turned out as 99.5% decent contributors to society - even after 40 odd years some still make contact and love to reflect on their schooldays.
The final 10 years - a sterility in the curriculum. Disaffected pupils and pushy parents - all about SATs results - I could see the change as I taught in my last school for 23 years. No time for spending in the school's wildlife area watching dragonflies emerge or identifying plants and animals - too busy studying theoretic science, Black history [in a locality with <1% non WASPI families] or mountains [East Anglia has few of those!] or ancient Egypt. There were more school refusers/reluctants, too, and GP prescriptions for support staff to distribute to pupils especially when exams loomed.
When a politician recites a mantra ["Education, education education", "The health service is safe in our hands", "Get brexit done" etc] it heralds disaster.
NOTA seems to be an attractive ballot paper option, rossbyjove - as a song went years ago, "I wonder who would lead us if none of us would vote?"

 

[Erichalfbee]

NOTA seems to be an attractive ballot paper option, rossbyjove - as a song went years ago, "I wonder who would lead us if none of us would vote?"

And from the Home Office

In an assessment that will lead to a backlash from Tory and Reform politicians, the report also says that “claims of ‘two-tier’ policing” are a “Right-wing extremist narrative” and that grooming gangs are an “alleged” problem “frequently exploit[ed]” by the far-Right.

1984 should be required reading at school.

 

[fian]

I agree with Enrico that it is the large stores that demand a cheap product (it doesn't matter what it is) because it is easier to impose certain services on the customer (where the supermarket takes away the difference in the product and also the premium margin). , which under no circumstances would you be willing to give up at the local store.
Regarding milk there is a difference with the UK. Milk in Spain is mostly UHT while in the UK it is HTST. Now, if milk in Spain lasts for months, how can it be a "sale" product from large stores. Basically with 2 proposals
A. The white label, all large stores have an agreement with a large dairy processor. The dairy processor secures a market share and packages the milk in a "surface brand X" brick.
B. Since UHT milk does not need refrigeration for its conservation and has a shelf life of months, it can be stored perfectly, breaking the timeline between production/transformation/use.

 

[pargyle]

I agree with Enrico that it is the large stores that demand a cheap product (it doesn't matter what it is) because it is easier to impose certain services on the customer (where the supermarket takes away the difference in the product and also the premium margin). , which under no circumstances would you be willing to give up at the local store.
Regarding milk there is a difference with the UK. Milk in Spain is mostly UHT while in the UK it is HTST. Now, if milk in Spain lasts for months, how can it be a "sale" product from large stores. Basically with 2 proposals
A. The white label, all large stores have an agreement with a large dairy processor. The dairy processor secures a market share and packages the milk in a "surface brand X" brick.
B. Since UHT milk does not need refrigeration for its conservation and has a shelf life of months, it can be stored perfectly, breaking the timeline between production/transformation/use.

I actually like the different taste of UHT Long life milk... but have you tried it in the British national drink TEA !!! It's awful ....

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I actually like the different taste of UHT Long life milk

bloody awful stuff

have you tried it in the British national drink TEA

why do you think I drink tea black? apart from the fact you get more of the tea flavour, it was all that was available out in the sticks in Lesotho, and any milk bar maas was impossible to find in Tanzania

 

[pargyle]

bloody awful stuff

why do you think I drink tea black? apart from the fact you get more of the tea flavour, it was all that was available out in the sticks in Lesotho, and any milk bar maas was impossible to find in Tanzania

We often had what was called 'sterilised' milk at home in Yorkshire as a kid in the 1950's, it came in a bottle with a crimped metal cap .. I actually liked the taste of it and I think it made the best rice puddings ever. We had it because it lasted without refrigeration. But .... it's dreadful in a cup of tea. The modern equivalent is long life mik - doesn't taste quite the same but nothing ever does when you stray from childhood into old age. I know it's one of those 'marmite' products - you either like it or hate it.

 

[JamezF]

Milk is a strange food source in the first place really. Lactose intolerance appears to be considered some sort of "disorder" despite almost two thirds of the world's population being so (something over 95% in Africa and Asia, I believe). I've been led to believe that increasing intolerance is a natural part of the development of young mammals and part of the weaning process, maybe suggesting that those of us who are able to continue drinking milk into adulthood are the ones who have a disorder.

James

 

[JamezF]

We often had what was called 'sterilised' milk at home in Yorkshire as a kid in the 1950's, it came in a bottle with a crimped metal cap

My grandparents (in what is now North Lincolnshire I think) too.

James