Quickest safe way to make sugar water

[ugcheleuce]

Hello everyone

What is the quickest *safe* way to make sugar water for bees?

At this time, I'm dissolving sugar into water at the ratio 3 kg : 2 litres. I do this at the kitchen stove, and I can only do 2 litres at a time. I've managed to decrease the time it takes to dissolve the sugar to about 20 minutes, by using an electric whisk and by bringing the water almost to the boil before I pour the sugar in (instead of starting the sugar + water mixture from a colder temperature). I know the solution is "ready" when I can see the bottom of the pot clearly. Then I pour the sugar water into flat bowls and put them outside to cool off.

But... is there a safe way to get the to-solution time down to e.g. 10 minutes? Is it safe to allow the mixture to boil? (that would free me from having to keep watch over it, or allow me to use the microwave oven) Are there non-harmful ingredients that I can add to the solution to make the sugar dissolve quicker?

Alternatively, do any of you use overnight sugar dissolving methods, such as these: 1, 2, 3 (and what do you call it in English)?

Thanks
Samuel

 

[JEP]

Buy a rigid water carrier you can usually get 20 litre ones for about £5 over here and a large plastic funnel (about £1). Fill the water carrier about 2/3 full with sugar. Add cold water with a hose pipe to a level about 1 inch higher than the sugar came to. Then shake and leave for half an hour then give another shake and pour into bee feeders. This way you can make approx. 15 litres of syrup with about 3 minutes of work.
Regards James.

 

[oliver90owner]

I do similar to JEP, but simply pour the sugar into an open vessel, add near boiling water to the same level and stir. Isn't affected by the cross sectional area of the vessel, as JEP's might be, and gives a ratio closer to 2:1 which is the normal autumn feed.

 

[tidymeup]

It's crude but it works, small pump used for mixing syrup by keeping everything moving.

Add water then keep adding sugar steady so not to block the pump.

 

[Hachi]

It's crude but it works, small pump used for mixing syrup by keeping everything moving.

Add water then keep adding sugar steady so not to block the pump.

just when you thought you'd seen it all. cracking

 

[tidymeup]

Necessity is the mother of all invention.

 

[user 6228]

A small submersible pump would do the same and would need no long pipe work but would need holding still. I use a threaded stub pipe welded to a pole with a T handle for a similar purpose for mixing 200L of liquid feed (not for bees).

 

[user 6228]

I do similar to JEP, but simply pour the sugar into an open vessel, add near boiling water to the same level and stir. Isn't affected by the cross sectional area of the vessel, as JEP's might be, and gives a ratio closer to 2:1 which is the normal autumn feed.

Can you tell me where the 2:1 versus 1:1 comes from ? Has it done through proper trials or is it ad hoc experiment or "beekeeper wisdom"?
If it is proper trials, please can you point to the papers... I'm very interested in this to see what its based on particularly the experimental set up.
While the answer seems obvious, the obvious answer isnt always right or even if right, the reasoning for the answer might not be correct. Even correct reasoning might conceal some other factors that were not considered in the original investigation.

 

[Pete D]

Buy a rigid water carrier you can usually get 20 litre ones for about £5 over here and a large plastic funnel (about £1). Fill the water carrier about 2/3 full with sugar. Add cold water with a hose pipe to a level about 1 inch higher than the sugar came to. Then shake and leave for half an hour then give another shake and pour into bee feeders. This way you can make approx. 15 litres of syrup with about 3 minutes of work.
Regards James.

I do this with used Ambrosia 12.5kg drums.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Can you tell me where the 2:1 versus 1:1 comes from? Has it done through proper trials or is it ad hoc experiment or "beekeeper wisdom"?

That would be interesting, indeed. The Dutch online beekeeping encyclopedia simply states the common wisdom but does not back it up with references. It says that sugar water for winter preparation should have the ratio 3 kg of sugar to 2 litres of water (simply put 3:2). For summer feeding, it says the ratio should be 1:1, and it says that the extra water is said to be condusive to comb production.

Whenever I read recipes online for sugar syrup, I'm always stuck with the question: weight or volume, or weight and volume? For in the Dutch "3:2 ratio" that I follow there is 0.55 kg of water for every 1 kg of sugar, and also 0.55 litres of water for every litre of sugar, but 0.66 litres of water for every kg of sugar, and 1.5 kg of sugar for every litre of water.

==

In my downloaded beekeeping books, the first mention of "ratio" with regard to sugar water is from Root&Root's 1910 edition of ABC&XYZ (see attachments 1&2). The 1980 edition of that book also mentions it (see attachments 3&4).

The earliest mention that I can find of "syrup" in my limited library is from Robert Huish's 1820 book "The Cottager's Manual for the Management of his Bees" in which he advocates feeding in February (to encourage them to grow) and October (if the hives are weak), but he does not mention ratios, unfortunately. In February, he recommends adding some port, and in October, he advocates sugar + ale (not water). Those were the days...

William Jardine's 1840 book "The Naturalist's Library, Entomology, Vol VI, Bees" mentions that bees fed on sugar syrup are more productive with regards to comb building than those fed on honey. This discovery is attributed to Huber, who did experiments to prove it (page 127). No ratios are given.

TB Miner's 1849 book "The American Bee Keeper's Manual" also mentions Huber's experiments, in greater detail. Huber apparently fed the bees various cocktails to produce different types of wax -- add eggs to the syrup, and you get dark comb, but use brown sugar, and you get white comb. The brown sugar syrup (unfortunately no recipe given) got him the most wax per pound of sugar -- 2.75 ounces of wax per pound of sugar. But I digress... no ratios given here either. Miner does say that the sugar syrup should have the same consistency as honey.

The earliest ratio that I could find was in Alfred Neighbour's 1865 book "The Apiary, or, Bees, Bee-Hives and Bee Culture". He advocates thin syrup, namely 6 lb of honey + 2 lb of water, or 3 lb of sugar + 2 lb of water.

AJ King's 1879 book "The New Bee-Keepers' Text Book, 24th ed" recommends sugar syrup made from 2 volumes of sugar + 1 volume of water, for autumn feeding, and simply says that the syrup should be thinner for spring feeding.

So it would seem that the wisdom of thin syrup in spring and thick syrup in authumn comes a long way already.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Can you tell me where the 2:1 versus 1:1 comes from? Has it done through proper trials or is it ad hoc experiment or "beekeeper wisdom"?

Randy Oliver (the "scientific" beekeeper) mirrors this wisdom, about halfway down this page. His explanation is that bees are stimulated into building comb if they sense that there is a nectar flow. Thin syrup has the same consistency as nectar, so judicious feeding with thin syrup in spring will prompt a hive to build comb. If the syrup is too thick, the bees won't be fooled. On the other hand, thick syrup is closest to honey, which is what bees need in winter, so that's why you feed thick syrup in autumn (to save the bees the effort). His explanation about how thin nectar feed fakes a nectar flow is worth looking into.

 

[oliver90owner]

Can you tell me where the 2:1 versus 1:1 comes from ?-

No. Just plain common sense tells us more sugar and less water equals less work for the bees to dewater the syrup for winter stores. Common sense (and previous practical results) tells us that is about as much sugar we can get into solution easily, and for it to stay there. Common sense tells us that bees need water to feed brood with honey.

Doesn't need papers and 'properly conducted trials' as it has been custom and practice of generations of beeks clever enough to do without such unnecessary hissing about.

Perhaps you have not noticed that winter bee feed is honey at typically less than 20% water content and summer feed for larvae is derived from nectar at a considerably higher water content. Bees have been doing this winter stores preparation and brood feeding for millenia. They do not go out and only collect nectar of a particular water content, but are selective for various reasons. Bees do not go out collecting water in early spring to cool the hives, either. Just some plain common sense observations tell me that lot without any fancy trials needed.

I doubt there is any simple experiment to determine the 'optimums'. Bees would do just as well with honey for winter stores or for feeding larvae at times of nectar dearth. Robbing is a clear example of that. Just like pollen - they need it but only one type is rarely the ideal mix of amino acids - which is likely selectively collected by the bees because they 'know' what they need without some beekeeping chemist analysing it before collection.

 

[Bosleeu]

Can you tell me where the 2:1 versus 1:1 comes from ?-

No. Just plain common sense tells us more sugar and less water equals less work for the bees to dewater the syrup for winter stores. Common sense (and previous practical results) tells us that is about as much sugar we can get into solution easily, and for it to stay there. Common sense tells us that bees need water to feed brood with honey.

Doesn't need papers and 'properly conducted trials' as it has been custom and practice of generations of beeks clever enough to do without such unnecessary hissing about.

Perhaps you have not noticed that winter bee feed is honey at typically less than 20% water content and summer feed for larvae is derived from nectar at a considerably higher water content. Bees have been doing this winter stores preparation and brood feeding for millenia. They do not go out and only collect nectar of a particular water content, but are selective for various reasons. Bees do not go out collecting water in early spring to cool the hives, either. Just some plain common sense observations tell me that lot without any fancy trials needed.

I doubt there is any simple experiment to determine the 'optimums'. Bees would do just as well with honey for winter stores or for feeding larvae at times of nectar dearth. Robbing is a clear example of that. Just like pollen - they need it but only one type is rarely the ideal mix of amino acids - which is likely selectively collected by the bees because they 'know' what they need without some beekeeping chemist analysing it before collection.

I totally agree. Don't break your head over the exact measurements.

A thick syrup is more like honey, so easy for the bees to store, and less buckets for the beekeeper to stir and to carry around. Makes sense to give in Autumn.

A thin syrup is more like nectar, so the bees can use it easily to feed brood. It simulates a nectar flow. Makes sense to feed this in Spring and Summer if needed.

Apologies if this more or less repeats what others said.

The bees can use both thick and thin, and probably anything in between, to do with what they need to by either adding or removing water. We are just trying to make it easier for them by adjusting it according to our perception of the needs of the colony as the season dictates.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

"I think the best all round proportions of sugar to water is one pound to half a pint, but if feeding must be done rather late in the autumn, it is better to make the sugar thicker, and three pounds of sugar to one pint of water may be none too thick" - R O B Manley - 1948

 

[Bosleeu]

Buy a rigid water carrier you can usually get 20 litre ones for about £5 over here and a large plastic funnel (about £1). Fill the water carrier about 2/3 full with sugar. Add cold water with a hose pipe to a level about 1 inch higher than the sugar came to. Then shake and leave for half an hour then give another shake and pour into bee feeders. This way you can make approx. 15 litres of syrup with about 3 minutes of work.
Regards James.

Sounds almost to easy to be true. I definitely wat to try this. Does it not take absolutely ages and a lot of shaking to disolve the sugar in the cold water?

 

[ugcheleuce]

Sounds almost to easy to be true. I definitely wat to try this. Does it not take absolutely ages and a lot of shaking to disolve the sugar in the cold water?

I tried that method, after reading about it. What you get is not sugar syrup but sugary water, with sugar in it. I'm sure it would be great for spring feeding. But I want thick syrup for autumn feeding, and shaking (even several times (even with hot water)) doesn't quite do it.

In fact I've discovered after trying the various tips here and elsewhere that you simply can't get away from either a very good whisk or hot temperature. Microwaving eventually did it as well, but that takes a long time (several 4-minute sessions followed by gentle stirring). I suppose leaving the sugary water in the hot sun in a black container might eventually dissolve everything, but it's not exactly summer around here.

The easiest method that I could find is to dissolve the sugar in water on the stove over a very mild fire. It takes quite a bit of time, but you can leave it and do other stuff while you wait for the sugar to dissolve.

By the way:

It takes about half as much water to cover a volume of sugar. In other words, if you put 1 litre of sugar in a jug and wanted to add just enough water to cover it, you would have to add 500 ml of water. JEP adds an inch more than that, so I'm guessing his solution would be between 2:1 and 3:2 when it's all dissolved. With only hot water and vigorous shaking I was able to get a 2:3 solution, but nothing thicker than that.

 

[Bosleeu]

I tried that method, after reading about it. What you get is not sugar syrup but sugary water, with sugar in it. I'm sure it would be great for spring feeding. But I want thick syrup for autumn feeding, and shaking (even several times (even with hot water)) doesn't quite do it.

In fact I've discovered after trying the various tips here and elsewhere that you simply can't get away from either a very good whisk or hot temperature. Microwaving eventually did it as well, but that takes a long time (several 4-minute sessions followed by gentle stirring). I suppose leaving the sugary water in the hot sun in a black container might eventually dissolve everything, but it's not exactly summer around here.

The easiest method that I could find is to dissolve the sugar in water on the stove over a very mild fire. It takes quite a bit of time, but you can leave it and do other stuff while you wait for the sugar to dissolve.

By the way:

It takes about half as much water to cover a volume of sugar. In other words, if you put 1 litre of sugar in a jug and wanted to add just enough water to cover it, you would have to add 500 ml of water. JEP adds an inch more than that, so I'm guessing his solution would be between 2:1 and 3:2 when it's all dissolved. With only hot water and vigorous shaking I was able to get a 2:3 solution, but nothing thicker than that.

Many thanks. Very informative. I prefer a totally disolved syrup as well otherwise it cloggs up my contact feeders.

So back to the hot water and stirring pot it is then........ D'oh!

 

[Mrs Shoot]

I do this at the kitchen stove, and I can only do 2 litres at a time.

Time to invest in a bigger pan. I have a couple that do 5 litres each.

 

[yeogi75]

has anyone used there extractor, fill with hot water attach some sort of paddle to bottom of cage and add sugar whilst turning just a thought, empty and return whilst turning.

 

[Bosleeu]

That sounds like a workable plan, maybe hard work for the gearing on my little plastic extractor though?