Question about aggressive Buckfasts

[Hagfish]

Hopefully someone can help me answer a question I can't seem to find an answer for. What I would like to know is this;
Is it common for Buckfast queens to turn aggressive in their second year?
I had a lovely colony of Buckfasts last year that overwintered well and were a joy to have. They were so placid and calm you could handle them without a suit and my children would be able to watch them happily and they flew in and out of the hive. However, they have come out of winter with the same (marked) queen and they are hellish. You can't go near the hive without a cloud of bees forming over you and they keep stinging the kids. Its go so bad I have decided to risk requeening them but was curious to hear if this is a known trait? I have heard that second generation Buckfasts are aggressive but I haven't heard of queens turning aggressive on a whim.

Any thoughts are appreciated thank you.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Depends where you get them from.
I’ve never had a problem with mine. Good to F4 before the bees are just mongrels and queen is replaced
Where did you get her from?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Where was your queen mated? if she was instrumentaly inseminated then yes, your workers will be pure buckfast, if she was open mated then.......
they're not called frankenstein bees for nothing.

 

[Hagfish]

Erichalfbee
A local breeder who is somewhat well respected but has seemed to has lost some credibility recently.

 

[Hagfish]

Where was your queen mated? if she was instrumentaly inseminated then yes, your workers will be pure buckfast, if she was open mated then.......
they're not called frankenstein bees for nothing.

She was open mated but I've heard of second generation BF queens being hard work but not of openly mated queens. Is that a thing?

 

[Ian123]

You say that the bees last year had been great it’s possible that there’s another queen from a supercedure in the hive or was marked last year? I would suggest it’s rather unlikely that the original queen is suddenly popping out aggressive bees. Second generation BF bees can be aggressive but in all honesty I’ve had some good and some bad on the whole I find they are little different than the average mongrel I get in my area, if anything a little better. 2 generations away from the original queen that’s really what they are mongrels.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Erichalfbee
A local breeder who is somewhat well respected but has seemed to has lost some credibility recently.

There’s your answer
If you want to keep buckfast then get decent ones

 

[Ian123]

I doubt it’s even the rearer/breeders fault first generations breed true as far as it’s possible to say with bees. Maybe a rogue virgin bumped the desired 1 off maybe he’s got a supercedure queen in there, could be many things. The op also said last year the bees had been good so my money is on the second. It should also be said that any race/strain or mongrel if you are getting 2 generations away from the desired mother you end up with many duff or undesirable traits. You need to be ruthless in your selection and have the ability to do so or replace. I would suggest you deal with the situation sooner rather than later and they build into a full colony though.

 

[Hagfish]

You say that the bees last year had been great it’s possible that there’s another queen from a supercedure in the hive or was marked last year? I would suggest it’s rather unlikely that the original queen is suddenly popping out aggressive bees. Second generation BF bees can be aggressive but in all honesty I’ve had some good and some bad on the whole I find they are little different than the average mongrel I get in my area, if anything a little better. 2 generations away from the original queen that’s really what they are mongrels.

It's the same queen. I know as she is marked.

 

[Ian123]

It's the same queen. I know as she is marked.

Yes got that but it’s Possible there’s a second. I was watching 2 running around on the same frame a couple of days ago.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

She was open mated

And probably her mother too by the sounds if things, but regardless, there's been no control whatsoever in what drones she mated with so obviously now your workers are from a drone with agressive characterisitcs in its genes.

 

[For want of a better word]

Where was your queen mated? if she was instrumentaly inseminated then yes, your workers will be pure buckfast, if she was open mated then.......
they're not called frankenstein bees for nothing.

Pure Buckfasts?

They are hybrids

 

[B+.]

Good to F4 before the bees are just mongrels ?

This is not correct Dani. If your virgin queens out-breed in an uncontrolled environment, the progeny will half with each generation

F1-50%, F2=25%, F3=12.5%, F4=6.25%, etc

If you rear queens from "pure" stock, the queen and her drones will be 100% pure in the F1 generation. These are ok as production colonies but going beyond F1 serves no useful purpose. They are effectively mongrels.

You may have been lucky and seen satisfactory matings, particularly if your neighbours have good bees, but that is not reliable.

 

[Popparand]

So are you saying that all strains will revert to a standard mongrel and that mongrel bees are by nature aggressive? Not my experience. My mongrels (ancestry unknown) are generally speaking very calm, except when a colony is failing.

 

[B+.]

She was open mated but I've heard of second generation BF queens being hard work but not of openly mated queens. Is that a thing?

I've told this story before but it seems applicable here.
Many years ago, I had BF from Brother Adam when he was still in charge of the apiary. Then, when his assistant Peter Donovan took over, I had some from him too. Then, I had some from Freidrichskoog, Germany (Dr Peter Stofen) who produces queens on a peninsular dedicated to Buckfasts. You would think that these were the best available (and the Parent generation were quite good) but, without exception, the F1 became "difficult" to manage.

 

[B+.]

So are you saying that all strains will revert to a standard mongrel and that mongrel bees are by nature aggressive? Not my experience. My mongrels (ancestry unknown) are generally speaking very calm, except when a colony is failing.

Yes to the first part and no to the second.
What people often fail to realise is that worker bees are the consequence of the genetic material of their mother (dam) and the queen that laid the egg which became the drone she mated with (sire). In open mating in uncontrolled areas, this can be several different sires. Some may be good, some may be bad. The workers are an average of their mothers genetics and those of her matings. Environmental influences can also play a part.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is not correct Dani. If your virgin queens out-breed in an uncontrolled environment, the progeny will half with each generation

F1-50%, F2=25%, F3=12.5%, F4=6.25%, etc

If you rear queens from "pure" stock, the queen and her drones will be 100% pure in the F1 generation. These are ok as production colonies but going beyond F1 serves no useful purpose. They are effectively mongrels.

You may have been lucky and seen satisfactory matings, particularly if your neighbours have good bees, but that is not reliable.

New queen. Daughter ok. Granddaughter ok. Great granddaughter replaced. Have I got my Fs wrong?

 

[Ian123]

New queen. Daughter ok. Granddaughter ok. Great granddaughter replaced. Have I got my Fs wrong?

Depends what you start with...most new queens sold are f1 so produced from a pure race/strain in this context, unless you’ve paid good money your purchased queen is liable to have been f1.

 

[Ian123]

So are you saying that all strains will revert to a standard mongrel and that mongrel bees are by nature aggressive? Not my experience. My mongrels (ancestry unknown) are generally speaking very calm, except when a colony is failing.

Yes they can be and subsequent daughters from all races can also be perfectly good however you may have to be ruthless in your selection and be prepared for undesirable traits to come in. The simple fact is you won’t be able to judge until the colony has developed into a reasonable size. Producing/rearing queens from a pure queen gives a very high success rate in terms of breeding true. Hence it’s the method that is used all over the world.

 

[For want of a better word]

This is not correct Dani. If your virgin queens out-breed in an uncontrolled environment, the progeny will half with each generation

F1-50%, F2=25%, F3=12.5%, F4=6.25%, etc

If you rear queens from "pure" stock, the queen and her drones will be 100% pure in the F1 generation. These are ok as production colonies but going beyond F1 serves no useful purpose. They are effectively mongrels.

You may have been lucky and seen satisfactory matings, particularly if your neighbours have good bees, but that is not reliable.

Does the opposite run true if the f4 gen is inseminated with the ( near 100%) pure drone.

I still can not understand how a hybrid ised bee between 2 sub species can be called pure?

One of my apiary owners breeds Devon Red cattle and he goes to extreem lengths to select the correct bull... changing the bull every couple of generations.... he is also *soil assn* organic so does not use II.

He says when he started out in his twenties he had a mixed batch of cattle, and now 70 he has a highly respectable herd, by selecting for the best.