Queenless question

[KeithFife]

Hello, I am in my second year of beekeeping with two colonies and have a couple of wee questions about what to do with one of my hives. One of them became queenless over the winter. My guess is that they may have kicked the queen out after I used MAQs strips as a late summer varroa treatment (following the instructions to the letter I might add).

On my last inspection the hive was strong but there were no eggs present. I suspected she may be off lay after the MAQS or else she was gone (and a new queen at that time of year wouldn't get mated). With only two hives I decided to take my chances rather than unite and so I wasn't completely surprised to find the hive queenless on a first look this week.

There are a surprising number of bees still (they were well fed in the autumn) but no worker brood at all and signs of laying workers (scattered, minimal drone brood on only a few frames). So I accept that the colony is a goner and needs to be shaken out. With only one other hive which is doing well I would like to keep it in good health. So questions..

1) Reading on other posts the consensus seems to be to shake them out in front of hives and let them drift onto other colonies. But with having only one other hive is there a risk that this will weaken the good hive or at least lead to a bit of a battle?

2) Would I be better shaking them out far away from the other hive? How far is far?

3) How many of the frames from the DLW colony can I salvage? I assume the stores / drawn comb are ok (e.g. for a nuc or new colony later) but I should get rid off the frames with drone cells?

Many thanks for any advice!

 

[enrico]

I take it you have no drones up there. A frame of eggs from the good hive may tide them over for a couple of weeks and then try again with another frame when the first one has emerged. Depends on strength of second hive etc. Be interested to see what others suggest!
E

 

[KeithFife]

I am fairly sure from the scanty brood pattern that it is a DLW rather than virgin or DLQ. The only drones about seem to be from the problem hive with a DLW. I have heard people suggest adding frames of eggs / brood sequentially week by week in the hope that they produce a queen but my fear is that would be too big a gamble and a good chance I would then end up with two lost colonies!

 

[Ian123]

I would just shake out a metre away from the remain hive and let them drift back. Get yourself a queen on order and stick the empty hive up as a bait hive, being a Scottish you should appreciate free bees

 

[Murox]

If you can provide (beg borrow) a frame or two of eggs from another keeper or use your own you can try to do as Enrico suggests. If thats not practical go with shaking out and keep other hive STRONG and make an increase later. Get a queen order anyway, or does local association have any/will have some??

 

[Erichalfbee]

As an aside I would be interested in how many more experienced keepers have found laying workers in an overwintered queen less hive? I never have.

 

[KeithFife]

Would definitely consider the bait hive option Ian if I end up with a spare hive. Enrico & Murox thanks for suggestion. My (limited) understanding was that once DLW has started there is very little chance of requesting successfuly no? But shaking out bees a metre away from good hive shouldn't cause any upset to them is that right? Any thoughts what to do with frames with drone brood on them?

 

[KeithFife]

As an aside I would be interested in how many more experienced keepers have found laying workers in an overwintered queen less hive? I never have.

That's interesting to know. If that is the cade then maybe it's not completely impossible that there is a small unmated late virgin DLQ in there. In which case one frame of eggs or a new queen maybe is worth a go?

The reason I thought it was a DLW was the very scant / patchy drone brood at the tops of frames. Couldn't see any eggs at all (either in the bottom or sides of cells) and no multiple eggs per cell so not completely typical of either problem but definitely no worker brood.

 

[Erichalfbee]

That's interesting to know. If that is the cade then maybe it's not completely impossible that there is a small unmated late virgin DLQ in there. In which case one frame of eggs or a new queen maybe is worth a go?

No
If there is a queen of any kind in there they will not raise another nor accept a new one.
If you can’t find her then if you shake them out the other hive won’t let her in.

 

[KeithFife]

I understand - only worth adding a test frame if I can first find and remove the possibility of a small unmarked emergency queen if there is one in there. Will have another look tomorrow. For what it's worth here is a pic of brood pattern. Not a pretty sight.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I understand - only worth adding a test frame if I can first find and remove the possibility of a small unmarked emergency queen if there is one in there. Will have another look tomorrow. For what it's worth here is a pic of brood pattern. Not a pretty sight.

Could be a failed queen.
If you have laying workers you will have multiple eggs in the cells, not because one bee lays lots of eggs but because one lays an egg and others come along to add to the feast. You see a solid pattern of drone brood only with a healthy but drone laying queen

 

[Swarm]

There is still a brood pattern. As Erichalbee, looks like the queen has failed.

 

[KeithFife]

Ok will go back in on a queen hunt at the next opportunity. Many thanks to you all for the advice, it is very much appreciated. Especially in this day and age where you can't easily inspect with anyone else. Best wishes for the season ahead.

 

[Murox]

That's interesting to know. If that is the cade then maybe it's not completely impossible that there is a small unmated late virgin DLQ in there. In which case one frame of eggs or a new queen maybe is worth a go?

The reason I thought it was a DLW was the very scant / patchy drone brood at the tops of frames. Couldn't see any eggs at all (either in the bottom or sides of cells) and no multiple eggs per cell so not completely typical of either problem but definitely no worker brood.

Thats changed things a bit - probably a failed Q as others have said.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

shake them out
It looks like the queen survived and laid over the winter (otherwise the colony would have been dead by Christmas) and turned her toes with the stress of the spring buildup. It happens, had a few this year

 

[Amari]

As an aside I would be interested in how many more experienced keepers have found laying workers in an overwintered queen less hive? I never have.

One of my 14 colonies at first exam a few days ago

 

[Swarm]

There you go KeithFife, the bees you see in the photo are the remainder of a colony I shook out today, look at that little group fanning, bottom left
Tho old girl has croaked and there was zero brood in any stage but still loads of bees.
Not sentimental at all but it broke my heart to do this to these bees, they've been the most quiet, docile bees for three years, smoke never required you move them with your fingers.

 

[Erichalfbee]

There you go KeithFife, the bees you see in the photo are the remainder of a colony I shook out today, look at that little group fanning, bottom left
Tho old girl has croaked and there was zero brood in any stage but still loads of bees.
Not sentimental at all but it broke my heart to do this to these bees, they've been the most quiet, docile bees for three years, smoke never required you move them with your fingers.

At least they have a purpose in life now.

 

[KeithFife]

There you go KeithFife, the bees you see in the photo are the remainder of a colony I shook out today, look at that little group fanning, bottom left
Tho old girl has croaked and there was zero brood in any stage but still loads of bees.
Not sentimental at all but it broke my heart to do this to these bees, they've been the most quiet, docile bees for three years, smoke never required you move them with your fingers.

It is a bit heart breaking isn't it ? Especially after they have worked so hard to get through the winter. Oh well..No problem shaking them out in front of my one good hive then? Also just to confirm should I get rid of the frames with drone brood / drone cells in them?

 

[Erichalfbee]

It is a bit heart breaking isn't it ? Especially after they have worked so hard to get through the winter. Oh well..No problem shaking them out in front of my one good hive then? Also just to confirm should I get rid of the frames with drone brood / drone cells in them?

Yes.