queen present for about 2 weeks, but no eggs.

[joelsoo]

Hi guys.. need some help here..

2 weeks ago, on 14th of May i inspected one of my hives, performed a demaree swarm control on the hive, and i noticed declining eggs (lots of empty cells in frames) in the bottom brood box where queen was present. The queen was found, so whilst working on the demareeing process i temporarily caught her, put her in an empty container that i previously used to keep feeding syrup. when i am done with the demareeing works, she was then placed back into the bottom brood box. In the demareeing process, i found quite a few queen cells on the brood frames, which i destroyed the QCs that i can spot. i did miss a couple of queen cells which was covered by bees, but i'd explain the outcome further below..

Last friday 22nd May when i inspect, i found some queen cells, 2 of which had hatched that i missed from last 2 demareeing process. however, it does not seem like the hive had swarmed, and i can't see any of the hatched queens so i decided to shake everyone into the bottom brood box to prevent queen present in my super. last week was the last i saw the old queen. At first, i thought she was a virgin queen but now after some throughts i concluded she's the old queen because the marker i marked her must have been cleaned off by workers as when i put her in the container on the last inspection on 14th May, and she was drenched in the remaining drops of syrup which was in the container.

Also during last last friday's inspection, i took out a few frames and bees, and setup a nucleus, i also put a newly hatched virgin queen into this nuc. (i helped open her queen cell and she crawled out!)

i just did another inspection today on 28th May, there are no eggs in the hive mentioned above, not much brood and 0 queen cells as the colony had been eggless since last inspection on 22nd may. Good news is there is still alot of bees, bad news is i can't find the old queen to remove her, but i could have missed spotting her as she was no longer marked. Question now is, if she's not doing her job of laying eggs properly for 2 weeks, i would hope the colony would have killed her for me? Yes or no?

the nuc with the virgin queen setup last week, i checked today and saw some eggs, of which i presume since last friday to today, it is about the 6th day, so she probably mated either today or yesterday. happy days.

i have thoughts to introduce the new mate queen to the main hive, but uncertain if the old queen is still there or not.. can anyone advise if i am doing the right thing to requeen the hive with this new queen, but caveat uncertain if old queen is still in there? i am just concerned that if i put this new 2020 queen in and the old queen is still in the hive, they fight, and the new one loses and i am back to square 1 with an expired queen.. is this a possibility? i can have another attempt to search for the old queen in the hive this weekend, but it may well be that she's not in there anymore, or she could be in there but i am just not trained enough to spot her.

thoughts?



thanks
Joel

 

[drex]

Really, if you found queen cells, it was too late to Demaree. A straight AS would have been better.
It is a pretty big assumption about the old mark having worn off the old queen. Possible but more likely to have been a virgin. I give it at least 3 weeks for a virgin to come into lay.
Before uniting it is better to be sure that one colony is queen less and the best way is to put in a test frame or at least a bit of comb containing eggs

 

[Erichalfbee]

Do just that. Wait another fortnight then try a test frame if still no brood in big hive
If you find queen cells then just do some sort of artificial swarm.
A much better way if keeping your queen safe if you need to is to have a spare nuc box and pop the frame she is on inside that.

 

[joelsoo]

Really, if you found queen cells, it was too late to Demaree. A straight AS would have been better.
It is a pretty big assumption about the old mark having worn off the old queen. Possible but more likely to have been a virgin. I give it at least 3 weeks for a virgin to come into lay.
Before uniting it is better to be sure that one colony is queen less and the best way is to put in a test frame or at least a bit of comb containing eggs

Yeah that's what I read that if QC are found it's too late to demaree. should have learnt to read the signs of hive getting full and performed demaree earlier.

When you say 3 weeks, is that 3 weeks after new queen hatched or 3 weeks from first sight of queen cell. (latter is 16 days from egg to queen hatch, plus 1 week mature for mating flight = 3 weeks)

 

[drex]

3 weeks from emergence. I have had some take that long, even a few days more. Was near to giving up on them.

 

[joelsoo]

Do just that. Wait another fortnight then try a test frame if still no brood in big hive
If you find queen cells then just do some sort of artificial swarm.
A much better way if keeping your queen safe if you need to is to have a spare nuc box and pop the frame she is on inside that.

Hi Eric, when you say "do just that", do you mean intro the new mated queen in the hive anyway? I'd try inspect and look for the old queen this weekend first, if I find her and remove her, at least I know the course is clear. My worry is I don't find her. If she's dead then it's good news, if she's alive but I can't spot her then put mated queen in together with her it's a problem.

If I find her yes I'd remove her into spare nuc. However it may be pointless because if she's in the old nuc and not laying she's prob no good. Tho referring back to above assumption, I am not 100% if she's old queen or virgin, so maybe still good idea to keep her for a while. That is if I find her.

It's my 2nd year beekeeping so still learning the ropes and training myself to spot queens better!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I was agreeing with drex
Test frame before any attempt to introduce a new queen.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

They swarmed - that's almost a certainty.
One day people will learn that Demarree is pointless once QC's are found. Doubtless you have a virgin or a newly mated queen running around in there - you just have to play the waiting game now.
I always keep an empty nuc to hand during inspections, if I think at any time that I'm going to have to do anything involving the queen, once I find her, she and the frame she's on goes into the nuc (I don't even bother putting the lid on) if I decide to Demarree I'm free then to check the rest of the box before moving it to one side and putting a previously prepared bottom box in it's stead. If there's QC's, I only have to add frames, more bees and a frame of food to the nuc and the queen can go on another stand in the apiary.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

...
Before uniting it is better to be sure that one colony is queen less and the best way is to put in a test frame or at least a bit of comb containing eggs

I was thinking of posting a thread on this but a reply here is probably more appropriate. I had a remarkably similar situation where I mislaid a Demaree-top VQ from a cheap clip and she had killed her mother before I knew it so don't worry, Joel: accidents happen. The trick is not to make things worse. (A bit like swarms: we all lose them from time to time: the non pathological liars or delusives, anyway... But losing CAST swarms as well is naughty.)

Anyway, __an easy test for Q+ is (assuming a super or other box on the colony, if not no good), to see if a clearer board clears__.

Don't take that as completely definitive if it does not, but if it does, leave well alone for longer than you want to. Patience is the hardest thing about this game, in my (ADHD, admittedly...) experience.

<ADD>In anticipation of an "oh you lost a swarm" challenge, records show I saw the OQ before trapping the VQ (I do Demaree bottoms first). Wouldn't rule out the possibility I squashed her checking for her after I re-secured the VQ, but I hope not (patience again: the correct course was to close up and look for EQCs at the next inspection, which I got, in spades...)</ADD>

 

[jeff33]

One day people will learn that Demarree is pointless once QC's are found.

Highly unlikely whilst local clubs, BBKA publications and other materials readily available online suggest to use it as a reactive method.