Queen introduction

[Tindog]

I have a colony of bees in an out apiary which is now queenless and has been for three/four weeks. The bees were gentle but are now extremely aggressive. I have tried introducing a frame of eggs and brood but they did not make any emergency cells. I have ordered a new queen due to arrive next week but I am concerned about introducing her at this stage to the colony in case she is rejected. I am unable to make up a small nuc with eggs and brood as I don’t have another hive anywhere near to do so. Any advice please?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Are you sure they're queenless - not making emergency cells with the first test frame is no definite resultot , in fact, the bees not making QC's is never a positive whether they're Q+ or n - try a few times before assuming.
Make sure the candy in the introduction cage is well protected so that the bees can't get at the queen until you decide - put the cage in the hive (queen, workers and all) and leave for a few days and then check to see the bees' attitude towards the queen - if they seem settled and happy with the queen, take the tab off the candy, if they still seem a bit aggressive towards her - leave it for a few more days.

 

[Tindog]

Thanks Jeremy,
The full story is slightly complex but in short I had to leave the hive in someone else’s care for three weeks. In that time they missed queen cells and absconded and it was too late on my return to address the situation. But I am sure they are Q-, their aggressiveness is so out of character. It’s a gauntlet job to inspect.
Regards
Andy

 

[Eyeman]

Thanks Jeremy,
The full story is slightly complex but in short I had to leave the hive in someone else’s care for three weeks. In that time they missed queen cells and absconded and it was too late on my return to address the situation. But I am sure they are Q-, their aggressiveness is so out of character. It’s a gauntlet job to inspect.
Regards
Andy

Don't forget to check for signs of laying workers?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

had to leave the hive in someone else’s care for three weeks. In that time they missed queen cells and absconded

So did your carers abscond because they missed queen cells?

The bees didn't 'abscond' they swarmed - they ignored the test frame as you have a virgin queen in there waiting to be mated.
Putting a bought in queen in that hive is sending her to a guaranteed death.

 

[Bakerbee]

I agree with jenkins. Had exactly the same situation in mine a while back. Patience is needed till shes mated and laying. I lost a beautiful buckfast trying to introduce into a hive i was positive was q-, i checked four times thoroughly and didnt spot her! ... turns out it wasnt. And i lost my new queen. Ive learnt its rare that a colony really goes q- .

 

[B+.]

Ive learnt its rare that a colony really goes q- .

The method I prefer is to raise frames of brood above a queen excluder for 9 days, then transfer them to a nuc, shaking the bees off each frame in turn and destroying any/all emergency queen cells. This makes an excellent "reception unit" for a new queen which I introduce under a "push in" cage.
You can always check the status of a nuc by placing the queens cage on the top bars. If they show aggression, don't introduce her, but, if they feed her through the bars it's usually safe to open the cage and let her walk in herself. I do this with my own mated queens (https://www.facebook.com/paul.walton.73/videos/10217400348907019/) but queen that have spent any length of time in the post go into a push-in cage

 

[Erichalfbee]

The method I prefer is to raise frames of brood above a queen excluder for 9 days, then transfer them to a nuc, shaking the bees off each frame in turn and destroying any/all emergency queen cells. This makes an excellent "reception unit" for a new queen which I introduce under a "push in" cage.
You can always check the status of a nuc by placing the queens cage on the top bars. If they show aggression, don't introduce her, but, if they feed her through the bars it's usually safe to open the cage and let her walk in herself. I do this with my own mated queens (https://www.facebook.com/paul.walton.73/videos/10217400348907019/) but queen that have spent any length of time in the post go into a push-in cage

That raising of the brood is something I might try. Cheers Paul

 

[Tindog]

Thanks Jenkinsbrynmair,
I am aware of the technical terminology, it was my failed attempt at humour!
I have had a colony before that just refused to make emergency cells even after two attempts at giving them eggs and brood but alas it didn't and I ended up uniting it with a Q+ colony. Normally, in my limited experience of seven years, they do make emergency cells if necessary but what makes me think that there is no queen is their behaviour. They have gone from calm and placid to very aggressive.
However, I will do as you suggest and wait a while longer and use the queen elsewhere until I am certain.
A

So did your carers abscond because they missed queen cells?

The bees didn't 'abscond' they swarmed - they ignored the test frame as you have a virgin queen in there waiting to be mated.
Putting a bought in queen in that hive is sending her to a guaranteed death.

 

[jeff33]

The method I prefer is to raise frames of brood above a queen excluder for 9 days, then transfer them to a nuc, shaking the bees off each frame in turn and destroying any/all emergency queen cells. This makes an excellent "reception unit" for a new queen which I introduce under a "push in" cage.
You can always check the status of a nuc by placing the queens cage on the top bars. If they show aggression, don't introduce her, but, if they feed her through the bars it's usually safe to open the cage and let her walk in herself. I do this with my own mated queens (https://www.facebook.com/paul.walton.73/videos/10217400348907019/) but queen that have spent any length of time in the post go into a push-in cage

I can't get that link to work Paul. Do you mean you run your hive on dble brood box with the queen in the bottom and you move open or closed brood frames regularly above the QE for 9 days? Are supers in between the 2 boxes, effectively like a demaree?

 

[Swarm]

I can't get that link to work Paul. Do you mean you run your hive on dble brood box with the queen in the bottom and you move open or closed brood frames regularly above the QE for 9 days? Are supers in between the 2 boxes, effectively like a demaree?

You see Michael Palmer doing similar with combs above an excluder. Leave them a while and the nurse bees go up to cover the brood, a good way to get just young, nurse bees.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

seems like a lot of needless fassarsery for a simple queen introduction.

 

[B+.]

I can't get that link to work Paul. Do you mean you run your hive on dble brood box with the queen in the bottom and you move open or closed brood frames regularly above the QE for 9 days? Are supers in between the 2 boxes, effectively like a demaree?

I'm sorry. I think that's down to Facebook security. I've loaded the queen introduction video to my YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyGWw29yOU8.
When I need to form a nucleus for a new queen, I want to give her enough young bees to support her until her own brood takes over. So, it's important that she has plenty of sealed brood. The adult bees will wear themselves out and they need to be continually replaced.
It doesn't matter how many boxes are under the excluder. The important point is that the queen doesn't have access to those frames you want to put in the nuc for 9 days. Then, you can be sure that, when you transfer the frames to a nuc, there are no eggs/young brood that the bees may consider a rival to the queen you're introducing

 

[B+.]

seems like a lot of needless fassarsery for a simple queen introduction.

I disagree.
If you spend good money on a queen, you don't want to lose her. Actually, her genetic value may far exceed her financial value. She may be irreplaceable at any price

Even local mongrels represent an investment of your time.

 

[B+.]

You see Michael Palmer doing similar with combs above an excluder. Leave them a while and the nurse bees go up to cover the brood, a good way to get just young, nurse bees.

Yes. It's very similar.
You can see what I mean in the old IWF queen rearing video (https://youtu.be/kyzAS5eZ2xA?t=10m30s). There is nothing new in beekeeping, just slight modifications.

 

[Eyeman]

You see Michael Palmer doing similar with combs above an excluder. Leave them a while and the nurse bees go up to cover the brood, a good way to get just young, nurse bees.

How does that compare with the age old practice of taking a brood comb, giving it a gentle shake to dislodge the flyers and your left with the nurse bees!

 

[B+.]

How does that compare with the age old practice of taking a brood comb, giving it a gentle shake to dislodge the flyers and your left with the nurse bees!

You're left with brood in all stages, as well as nurse bees on the comb.
If you introduce to a cell builder, they may raise emergency cells on that brood instead of your grafts. The same thing is important in queen introduction. You don't want to give them a choice of building their own cells to compete with a queen you're trying to introduce (possibly under a push in cage). If they have no choice, they will (usually) accept the queen you give them.

 

[sean-a]

I have been through a colony three times, signs of eggs and drone brood, loads of drones.
It was the half of an Artificial Swarm with the queen cells
I had thought that I had laying workers so was going to shake them out and put some open brood in to see whether I could retrieve the situation. Not been in the hive for a couple of weeks.

Shook off the first frame..
Second frame was full of open brood with a bit of capped worker brood.
Third, forth and fifth frames were stuffed with wall to wall brood and with eggs

Feeling a bit of a muppet now.
Just hope that the Queen wasn't on the first frame :-/

 

[Eyeman]

You're left with brood in all stages, as well as nurse bees on the comb.
If you introduce to a cell builder, they may raise emergency cells on that brood instead of your grafts. The same thing is important in queen introduction. You don't want to give them a choice of building their own cells to compete with a queen you're trying to introduce (possibly under a push in cage). If they have no choice, they will (usually) accept the queen you give them.

Recently has a queenless double national after an artifical swarm that produced QC's on a test frame with no other open brood. Used the brood and bees to set up x3 small nucs on same site and introduced a newly mated queen in cage with fondant plug. The test frame had all capped QC's removed leaving just the uncapped QC's. Inspection 1 week later all 3 queens accepted. Then I took one of these queens and introduced her to the original double national again in a cage with fondant plug. The test frame in the double nuc had capped QC's and this was placed in the now queenless nuc. So double national has only some old sealed brood.
One week later there was no sign of the queen in the double nuc. So another test frame went in.
Moral of this tail is if you can get the older foragers to fly back to the original hive ( as occured when I set up the nucs) then queen introduction is much more successful. In future for a colony with all ages of bees I would leave the queen in the cage for 1 week (till my next inspection).

 

[B+.]

if you can get the older foragers to fly back to the original hive ( as occured when I set up the nucs) then queen introduction is much more successful. In future for a colony with all ages of bees I would leave the queen in the cage for 1 week (till my next inspection).

I agree. The older bees can be quite a nuisance during queen rearing (and other things).
I would prefer to have a colony with sealed/emerging bees so the queen is cared for by young nurse bees. The colony I introduced the queen to in that video had been queenless for over a week.There was no open brood at all.