Queen help and brood pattern (pics)

[bellabee]

Hello everyone,

I am new here and very excited to talk to you all about bees and hear any help or advice you have

This is our hive:

Super 1 - nearly full waiting for bees to cap
Super two - added recently - bees found and drawing
QX
Shallow brood 1
Deep brood 2

Our bees went crazy mid spring for all the blossom about and really got to work on super 1 after we put that on in the spring.

We were doing our checks one week and noticed queen cups (Near the bottom on the frames) and supersedure cups in the middle of the frames. This worried us as we didn't want them to swarm after such a good start, we read so much about queen cups and weather to cut them out or leave them. In the end we left them and built another brood box, which contains 5 frames of new wax foundation and we blocked off the other half. We have placed this new brood box here:

Hello everyone,

I am new here and very excited to talk to you all about bees and hear any help or advice you have

This is our hive:

Super 1
Super two
QX
>> New 5 frame brood <<
Shallow brood 1
Deep brood 2

Was this the right thing to do? I guess we are more interested in getting our hive through our first year rather than honey production this year.

So on the inspection and fitting the new brood we checked for:

* Grubs - we saw all sizes on B1 and B2
* Eggs - we only saw a small patch in the shallow brood, but they were defiantly there and at the bottom of the cells
* Queen cups - we saw only two this time, but hopefully fitting the new brood they might give up on this.
* Brood pattern - Looked a little sporadic picture here:

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/900/bees1.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1646/bees2.jpg

* Queen - we are a little new to finding her and have not marked her, but the bees did cluster to a few points when removing the frames.

ANY advice you can give would be great and very much appreciated.

Is it possible the bees replaced the old queen themselves and we had a laying drone?

Finding fresh eggs yesterday is good....? What should we check for next?

Many thanks in advance

 

[Busybee123]

Welcome. I'm sure an expert will be along in a minute to answer your question (they are a bit like buses....none for ages and then 2 or 3 all at once). In the meantime I will try and help...

Regarding Queen Cups - if they are empty (i.e. no eggs, royal jelly or grubs, then I don't think they are of any real concern and should be left - if you remove them bees will just make more).

You really only need to take action when you find a charged queen cell (drawn out queen cup with royal jelly and larva in).

 

[Busybee123]

Hello again... I just had a look at the pictures you posted - you do seem to have brood issues, but there are people on here much more experienced and able than me who hopefully will be able to tell you what those issues might be.....but you seem to have "pepperpot" brood pattern which may indicate disease, or a failed queen.

 

[bellabee]

Hello Busybee,

Thank you for your reply Ok good on the Queen cups, I assumed they would make more. I did wonder about the brood pattern. I hope someone can help!!

I did think it looked strange, we did see queen eggs in part of a frame, I am wondering what to do next!!

Take care. x

 

[drstitson]

how long is it since you changed the hive setup?

much of the brood you show is drone (esp pic 2 where it appears to be hanging below a frame). drone brood often patchier then worker PLUS if you have not had continual laying in a box of frames as brood hatches the pattern can be a bit off plus drone cells will be around for a week longer and so enhance patchy appearance.

 

[drstitson]

and btw your 5 frame half box setup is bizarre and serves no purpose (unless it is in fact above QE). what were you trying to achieve?????

 

[bellabee]

Hello drstitson,

Thank you for your reply, what do you mean 'changed the set up'? Our set up is:

Super 1
Super two
QX
>> New 5 frame brood <<
Shallow brood 1
Deep brood 2

As of yesterday, we added >new 5 frame brood < but has been the same since we purchased the hive from a friend in spring. We found queen eggs yesterday in shallow brood 1 near the center frames, do you know what might have been going on? There doesn't seem have been much activity in the brood chambers recently.

Thank you in advance.

 

[drstitson]

precisely - what is intended function of the 5 frame brood box?

 

[bellabee]

We were worried they would swam so gave them so more room, however now there hasn't been much activity I am starting to question that, and thinking we should take it down to just one brood?

 

[oliver90owner]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Sorry but couldn't resist this one:

Is it possible the bees replaced the old queen themselves and we had a laying drone?

There is no chance, ever, of a drone laying eggs!!

Cannot tell a lot from your pics apart from the comb needs replacing and you have shallow frames in a deep box. I don't like the appearance of some of the cappings, either.

You need to tell us more about your inspections. Have these been weekly, for the last couple of months?

Their can be several reasons why there may be no eggs and your picture to us is somewhat blurred.

As drstitson says, your box/frame arrangement is not normal, to say the least.

we did see queen eggs in part of a frame,

You are meaning eggs that have been layed by a queen? How do you know that?

I think you need to have your colony looked at soonest. The pepper-pot brood could be indicative of a serious problem - either disease, or more likely a heavy varroa infestation. Have you any idea of the varroa loading? Are there bees with deformed wings in the hive?

RAB

 

[bellabee]

Hello oliver90owner,

Thank you for you reply, we have been checking every week recently, and every two weeks before that, we only got the hive in late April from a friend, who mentioned it had mild verroa that she had treated and could not get rid of.

* The eggs we saw were in the very bottom of the cells, not on the sides.
* The frames were given to us like that, we are aware we have a few shallow frames in there and yep we need to replace.
* What box arrangement would you suggest please?
* We did see one bee with one wing shorter than the other, but that was just one bee and we are not sure she was damaged when replacing the lid.
* I think we will get someone to look at it soon. The weather is so bad here at the moment.



Please appreciate I am very new to all this! Any help is great.

 

[bellabee]

ps: oliver90owner

The picture was taking on a 50mm prime lens which tends to blur, I need to take my other lens next time and stop up a few frames.

 

[Mike a]

Welcome to the forums bellabee

I agree with RAB

The pictures dont look good, I would suggest you ask some one experienced to take a look at the colony as soon as possible.

Picture 1 - Suspect most of the drone brood on the right is already dead, the cappings look a bad colour and some what sunken <never a good sign>

Picture 2 - Very old looking comb and frame, again some of the cappings look sunken and a bad colour.

Use an uncapping fork and dig out some of contents of the deformed cappings (5-10) they should be pearly white, if not then seek help fast as the colony could well be in trouble.

Not sure how long you have been bee keeping or if you are a member of an association, but if you started this year and bought this colony from someone I wouldn't be impressed at all that they sold the colony on frame shown in the picture 2. Old frames should be thrown away or better still burnt on a bonfire along with the combs as part of a 2-3 year cycle of hygiene.

Best wishes

 

[bellabee]

Hello Mike a,

This is our first year (we are learning fast) we brought the hive, frames and bees from a friend who is down sizing! I am now starting to suspect it was not a good colony at the end of its life. Ahh. not very helpful when starting out. She should have seen this yes? Before she sold it to us?

Ok, plan now is to check the capped brood, pearly white. If it is fine then what. If it is not then what...?

Thank you in advance

 

[Hebeegeebee]

The brood pattern looks like one of three things
a)you have a failing queen if it is patchy drone brood in the cells. (Not quite sure from the photos).
b) heavy varroa infestation
c)disease

I can understand your desire to add space - Once a colony gets - say 6 - 7 frames of brood in the Spring, then it's time to put on supers. If the number of brood frames continues to increase beyond 9 I simply put another brood chamber under the existing one. You don't need to use a 1/2 brood which is I guess what you've done.

By laying drone I assume you mean drone laying queen. (DLQ). Not uncommon.

It would make sense for you to get an experienced beekeeper to have a look see. Your local association may be able to help. Clarification on some of the points above would help...
As you know the brood pattern should be spherical and as young brood emerges a good queen will lay up those cells quite quickly at this time of year unless she is being prepared to swarm or there is little forage.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

You should be able to see brood of all ages
Eggs - 3 days before they hatch
Open Larvae - from egg to sealed in 6 days. As you say pearly white as they develop into a nice C shape.

21 days total from egg to bee emerging so you can estimate the ratios you see in the hive - in theory anyway. Twice as many sealed brood as open larvae and twice as many larvae as eggs. Don't count, just make sure you have some of each!

 

[oliver90owner]

picture was taking on a 50mm prime lens which tends to blur,

Sorry, but I was referring to the picture you were 'painting', not the pics.

You have inherited this hive so the frame/box layout is possibly a bit awkward. I would not be on brood and a half for the season - I run 14 x 12s and run without a Q/E early on. If more than 1 1/2 brood boxes is needed, double brood is the obvious, but not your mixture.

Getting frames drawn is relatively easy early on (when things have warmed up) but now it may be difficult as they may not be needing any more space at the moment, so will not readily draw comb. There are, as usual, several ways to change brood frame size, the principle being to offer more combs/foundation and deny her access to the box to be 'removed'. The box to be removed is left on for three weeks, or when all the brood has emerged before being taken away, or simply left on for honey storage. Some simply shook swarm the bees - this is good early in the year and reduces the varroa count significantly.

I would likely add a deep, placing some of the brooding frames in both boxes with the shallow left above a Q/E (the brood 'link' between the bottom box and the shallow helps to prevent any supercedure impulse, and the shallow can start to be a super as the brood emerges).

You simply need to observe whether the brood is increasing or decreasing before choosing how to avoid any 'overcrowding' swarming or having to much empty space in your hive.

Get your hive 'looked at' very soon. Any disease or pest problem needs diagnosing at the very earliest opportunity and acting on fairly quickly, if not immediately.

RAB

 

[bellabee]

Hello Hebeegeebee,

Thank you for your reply, Ooo I see you are in Norfolk, where abouts are you? I often go up to see my ma, and studied there

Thank you for your help, it can be so daunting as a new beekeeper!!

I am hoping from your post it is a or b or both!! And not c. I hope most new bee keepers go through this as it is quite worrying.

We are going over tonight to check again I will post more pictures after.
I think we will remove the half brood also and concentrate on getting them strong again.

Yes (DLQ) is that when they lay the eggs in the side of the cells and in a random pattern? I think, I hope that is what happened, and now they have re Queened as we saw Queen eggs in the bottom of the cells - thats good?

We saw eggs and lava, curled white. We did not see emerging bees or were too busy checking for other stuff at the time.

(Thank you SO much for your help)

Any other things we should look for tonight?

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Yes (DLQ) is that when they lay the eggs in the side of the cells and in a random pattern? I think, I hope that is what happened, and now they have re Queened as we saw Queen eggs in the bottom of the cells - thats good?

?

No, laying in the side and random patterns indicates laying workers. AFAIK the only indication of a DLQ is drone but no worker brood

 

[bellabee]

oliver90owner,

Teehee, a ha I see, Ok well I will take better pictures next time anyway, Ok blurry picture...I guess we could have a number of things, probably verroa and a new queen and teh hive being with out for a while.

I guess next year will should split the hive then? Or should we do this this year? And run single brood boxes like you say. I like your idea of moving the super up, we will do this and keep the new brood box on to work as another brood for next year. So the set up will go from:

Super 2
Super 1
QX
NEW - Deep brood 3
Shallow brood 2
Deep brood 1


to:

Super 2
Super 1
Shallow brood 2 - becomes another super
QX
NEW - Deep brood 3
Deep brood 1

What does 'shook swarm the bees' mean? To reduce verroa.

At the moment it has decreased I think because of the lack of Queen hopefully that is fixed now due to seeing Queen eggs.

Hive being looked at tonight...

I hope the bees can forgive us.