Queen excluders & lower entrance colonies

[omnimirage]

I've recently discovered this source:

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/

And it's led me to wonder whether I should even use excluders. I have an apiary site, in scrub land Australia, with 6 well established, mostly strong hives. These hives have been neglected, and the comb inside is dark and foul. I don't wish the bees to lay brood in the comb I wish to use to extract honey, but I also don't want to reduce the efficiency of my hives.

Under these conditions, should I make the effort in installing queen excluders? If I wish to use queen excluders in the future, should I use hives that have upper entrances instead of lower?

 

[Finman]

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You give 2 boxes foundations per strong hive. Put them lowest. Then excluder. Let the bees fill the old combs with honey and extract.

Renewing combs is annual procedure.

According researches excluder does not reduce honey yield.

These are basics of beekeeping and many other things too.

Get experienced beekeeping friends, with whom you can discus about honey production locally. Good yields come from pastures, not from forums.
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Hive had space for
- pollen
- brood,
- foundation box
- nectar
- rippen honey

In this order from down to up.
Put allways foundations into one group.
For example over brood half box foundations and half box extracted combs.

Many keep excluder so tight that bees must store pollen into honey frames.

Be flexible what you do with your principles and learn the basic instincts what bees want to do. If you do against basic instincts, bees use lots of energy to arrange things according to their basic ideas.



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[omnimirage]

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You give 2 boxes foundations per strong hive. Put them lowest. Then excluder. Let the bees fill the old combs with honey and extract.

This is what I've been taught, but then, I read in that article that such isn't efficient. I'm quite unsure now.

Renewing combs is annual procedure.

I didn't know. I believe my inherited hives are way overdue. How is this done?

Many keep excluder so tight that bees must store pollen into honey frames.

How is it kept "tight"?

Be flexible what you do with your principles and learn the basic instincts what bees want to do. If you do against basic instincts, bees use lots of energy to arrange things according to their basic ideas.

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Sounds like wise words!

 

[Finman]

This is what I've been taught, but then, I read in that article that such isn't efficient. I'm quite unsure now.

Comb building takes quite much honey, but renewing combs are necessary. You have there long brooding period, and you need at least 3 boxes per year new combs. Many things happen to combs and they will brake.

Give foundations in several times. IT prevents swarming

How is it kept "tight"?

I mean that put them in one group, that bees draw them evenly. If every two is drawn combs, bees prefer to lenghten existing combs, and that work is wasting.

Sounds like wise words!

I have read Australian advices even if I live in Finland.
Different climate does not harm my learnning. Lots of trials and errors too.
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[omnimirage]

Comb building takes quite much honey, but renewing combs are necessary. You have there long brooding period, and you need at least 3 boxes per year new combs. Many things happen to combs and they will brake.

That's what is happening now. Most of these hives are four supers deep. Previous owner didn't attend to them for half a year. Now, when I open them, especially down in the brood area, the comb is so flimsy that it often gets stuck and tears as I try to open it.

How am I supposed to replace this? More or less all the comb is blackened. I don't have a spinner, so I've been taking a spoon with me and crushing the comb into a bucket. Should I do this with all the comb? The blackened comb is a mighty pain in the *** to strain. How would I replace comb deep in the brood chamber, where brood is everywhere?

 

[Erichalfbee]

How would I replace comb deep in the brood chamber, where brood is everywhere?
Put an excluder between the new frames and the old first making sure your queen is on the new frames.
Try moving the frame she is on and then working that one out if you want.
Once all the brood has emerged take the box away.
I wouldn't crush and strain brooded comb for myself....yuk! The bees would like it though.

 

[omnimirage]

Ah, makes sense. I hope I have enough frames! I don't crush and strain brooded comb; I've always left it alone if it has brood on it, or crush around it.

How would I be able to make sure if she's on the new frame? The hives are huge, with thousands of bees and they don't have a queen excluder: I could spend a good hour and examine every inch of the hive until I find her (and hope I don't get mutilated during the process, these bees get angry); is there a better method?

 

[Finman]

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First of all, get a extractors. In Australia you can get 300 kg honey per hive. It is 20 supers.
It is real waste on money if you brake combs to get honey.

I use 3 langstroths for brood + 4-6 supers. That hive can store at one time 100 kg honey.

 

[Finman]

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You do not need to search the queen. Give those foundations. When you see the queen, then put that exluder.

Most important is to inspect swarm cells, and look that hive has enough space for honey and nectar.

Go to work with some experienced beekeeper and help him

You really need good advices with your hives.
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[Erichalfbee]

Sorry, I didn't mean crushing grubs, I meant crushing old blackened combs with pupal cases........for the honey they contain. Cells that have had brood in them but do no longer.
I have had to look for queens in tetchy colonies. You just have to plod on till you find her. There are various tricks which include dividing the frames and seeing which half becomes agitated...difficult I know if the bees are cranky in the first place. I've had to divide a colony into pairs of frames to look for a queen between one of these pairs. Take everything away and leave a box for the flyers to return to....at least that will keep them out of your way.
Oh and look on the floor.

Best of luck.

There is another way if you look up Bailey comb exchange. This involves putting the new box on top. The bees will draw the frames and the queen will naturally go up there. Once you find brood in there put in that queen excluder. There is always a chance that you will miss the queen especially if she runs down away from smoke.

 

[Erichalfbee]

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You need not to search the queen......... When you see the queen, then put that exluder.



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How will you see her without looking for her?
Only by happenstance, then

 

[omnimirage]

Sounds tricky. What if I can't find her, what should I do? If the bees get too angry and I need to get out of there, and I don't see any queen activity on the third super +, could I just blindly put the queen excluder on? Or is it best to only do that with a visual confirmation of the queen?

The reason why I ask, is because whenever I go deep in these hives, the bees tend to get very angry; the frames are rather stuck together, and all sorts of havok seems to break through whenever I open it up. I'll try, but I doubt I'll be able to spot the queen in all the hives.

 

[B+.]

Sounds tricky. What if I can't find her, what should I do?

If you have a spare hive with foundation, place it on the original spot and move the colony a few yards away and face it in another direction. The older foragers (which are the ones you have to watch) will continue to return to the original site. If you can give them a comb of eggs/larvae, so much the better.
By next day, a lot of the bees will have vacated the old hive in favour of the new one. This should make it easier for you to break down the old hive. Finding an unmarked queen can be difficult but, if you can run all the bees through a box with a queen excluder on the bottom, you are sure to find her.
It sounds like the comb isn't worth saving and you are much better off starting with clean equipment
Good luck

 

[Finman]

How will you see her without looking for her?
Only by happenstance, then

He must insoect his hives. Swarming period is very long in Austalia.
And qheen is mostly the frames, where are eggs.

He MUST inspect his hives every week, if he is going to bee a beekeeper.

Lesson 1#: Open the hives!!!! And learn what hives are doing.


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[Finman]

If you have a spare hive with foundation, place it on the original spot and move the colony a few yards away and face it in another direction. The older foragers (which are the ones you have to watch) will continue to return to the original site. If you can give them a comb of eggs/larvae, so much the better.
By next day, a lot of the bees will have vacated the old hive in favour of the new one. This should make it easier for you to break down the old hive. Finding an unmarked queen can be difficult but, if you can run all the bees through a box with a queen excluder on the bottom, you are sure to find her.
It sounds like the comb isn't worth saving and you are much better off starting with clean equipment
Good luck

That is worst you can do only to see the queen. He is not even a beginner.

Ask some experinced beekeeper to help, and he can say in what condition are you hives. Are they strong, when they need more boxes etc...

To put excluder is not the first thing.

Perhaps hives have already swarmed this summer.

First you need lots of new frames and boxes... Aaannnndddd an exractor.
When you extract, you get new space to hives.


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[jenkinsbrynmair]

What if I can't find her, what should I do? If the bees get too angry and I need to get out of there, and I don't see any queen activity on the third super +, could I just blindly put the queen excluder on?

Yes, at lest then in a week's time you will know which side of the excluder she is by the lack/presence of eggs and young larvae

 

[Finman]

There is another way if you look up Bailey comb exchange. This involves putting the new box on top. The bees will draw the frames and the queen will naturally go up there. Once you find brood in there put in that queen excluder. There is always a chance that you will miss the queen especially if she runs down away from smoke.

The queen does not go into new combs. And it not not leave recent brood area. Bailey comb change means destroying you hives. ... From where you pull those ideas?

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[Erichalfbee]

The queen does not go into new combs. And it not not leave recent brood area. Bailey comb change means destroying you hives. ... From where you pull those ideas?

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Yes she does.
I don't like the method...I must admit to only ever trying it with four hives. It worked on all of them but one lot of bees refused to use the upper entrance and quite a few of the old frames I wanted to throw away ended up full of pollen

 

[Finman]

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I repeat: Take a contact to the beekeeping society, or go the the house where you see beehives.

6 hives is much to start. Find a person, who can look your hives and advice what to do. You loose lots of honey if you try to kearn yourself, and hou learn wrong fhings. 90% out of forum advices are vain or wrong.


You can do what ever this forum says, but you need an evaluation, where to start. And I suppose that you must spend some money to invest to your hives.
Every one must buy things to buy new frames, foundations etc.

The goal is that when you sell your honey yield, you get your money back. That is beekeeping.

You can use old combs as long as you get them renewed.

 

[Finman]

Yes she does.
I don't like the method...I must admit to only ever trying it with four hives. It worked on all of them but one lot of bees refused to use the upper entrance and quite a few of the old frames I wanted to throw away ended up full of pollen

I really have more experince about beekeeping. A new box over the pile... Good heavens!

If you do not find the queen and put excluder, it is better to collect brood frames nearby boxs. Then foundation box over brood, and then honey.

First task is to get new boxes, new frames and put foundations into frames. It is quite a job to beginner. 60 frames.

Then you can open the hive.

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