Queen cage - varroa management

[elainemary]

I'm not disputing the fact that they don't age as quickly, but the statement that they don't progress to foragers I find pretty far fetched, what do they do if there's no brood? sit around knitting or playing cribbage until the queen starts laying again?

They show a degree of plasticity ie will do other jobs in the hive, undertaking, cell cleaning , moving nectar up into supers if there's a flow, fanning to cool the hive etc. Main point is they are not feeding brood, so like winter bees will live longer & will 'revert' to feeding brood when the queen starts laying again.

 

[gmonag]

Certainly worth a try, regardless of the nay-sayers.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

They show a degree of plasticity ie will do other jobs in the hive

as well as going out foraging

 

[Ian123]

Takes 30mins to do with a queen cage. Only need to go into the colony at the beginning and end of the 21 days, minimal intervention. He recommended timing it with late summer flows not in May.

.......it may take 30 min if you can find the queen in all your hives, let’s face it many can’t. I like to think I’m pretty adept at finding her majesty but there’s always that time when you need to find her and she’ll be running around on the floor. Add to the fact BI’s quote 30% have an additional queen, and the cages cost a few quid. It really is a solution for those with a couple of hives.

 

[B+.]

I have issues with the brood break management to control varroa. So you cage or remove the queen for a number of weeks. Just how is it that this controls the varroa population? Yes, I agree the varroa population increase might be put on hold, but then what? Color me confused.

Agreed.
A much better approach is the

I was wondering that.

Above all, I just have to pass on any method which requires the wholesale destruction of large quantities of brood. It's not that I don't respect the science, I just prefer methods of controlling varroa that don't require the killing of thousands of larvae or bees in capped cells.

I was also interested to note that he says that the wintering success (a key metric if ever there was one) was better where his methods were applied in May (i.e. during classic swarm season), but that this isn't desirable as it reduces the honey crop, thus he recommends July. Wintering success wasn't one of the statistics he gave in his charts though.

I agree with Michael.
The foundress lays an infertile egg first - which becomes a male. Subsequently, she lays fertile eggs which become female. With SMR/VSH the foundress is repeatedly disturbed and eventually doesn't lay a male. This creates a clutch of females that have not mated so limits population growth.
I'm not in favour of the brood break because all it is doing is postponing the breeding stage - the varroa continues to feed on the fat bodies of adult bees, weakening them and transmitting viri.
The practice of brood destruction, whether worker or drone, reminds me of the old-fashioned practice of blood-letting. All it does is weaken the patient.

 

[elainemary]

Agreed.
A much better approach is the

I agree with Michael.
The foundress lays an infertile egg first - which becomes a male. Subsequently, she lays fertile eggs which become female. With SMR/VSH the foundress is repeatedly disturbed and eventually doesn't lay a male. This creates a clutch of females that have not mated so limits population growth.
I'm not in favour of the brood break because all it is doing is postponing the breeding stage - the varroa continues to feed on the fat bodies of adult bees, weakening them and transmitting viri.
The practice of brood destruction, whether worker or drone, reminds me of the old-fashioned practice of blood-letting. All it does is weaken the patient.

Except that’s not backed up by the science on 300 colonies that survived the winter and performed ahead of control colonies treated by organic acids.
The key is timing so winter bees are produced after the brood break. Until SMR/VSH colonies are widely available and adapted to all local environments (many years away) it’s my view it’s worth trying alternative methods that reduce the use of chemicals.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Except that’s not backed up by the science on 300 colonies

Is it though?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Elainemary. Please do let us know in 18 months time how things go. I presume you will be running control colonies too?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Is it though?

I’m not convinced and I’m not going to be trying it but I would be interested in how those that try it get on. I do hope they run controls as otherwise the results are purely speculation

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I’m not convinced and I’m not going to be trying it but I would be interested in how those that try it get on. I do hope they run controls as otherwise the results are purely speculation

I think it's just wishful thinking
Or the desire by the usual suspects - the shook swarmers and others obsessed with killing brood to reinvent the wheel - but square to save on the handbrake

 

[drex]

From what I remember from his series of videos Ralph Thingummy has shown, scientifically that it does work. Work by Tom Seeley also advocates brood breaks ( due to swarming) as a means of keeping varroa down. From what we know of the bee and varroa life cycle it makes sense. However like B+ I feel it is a bit like bloodletting too.
Seems a lot of faffing about. Think I will stick to thymol and OA, but each to his own

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Seems a lot of faffing about.

Of course it is - it seems to be a compulsion with the sistificit wavers that they must be seen to be fiddling with the bees at every opportunity.
Another reason that the BBKA annual honey yield average is so risibly low.

 

[Ian123]

From what I remember from his series of videos Ralph Thingummy has shown, scientifically that it does work. Work by Tom Seeley also advocates brood breaks ( due to swarming) as a means of keeping varroa down. From what we know of the bee and varroa life cycle it makes sense. However like B+ I feel it is a bit like bloodletting too.
Seems a lot of faffing about. Think I will stick to thymol and OA, but each to his own

Well said.....the point is none of this is new!!!!

 

[B+.]

Except that’s not backed up by the science on 300 colonies that survived the winter and performed ahead of control colonies treated by organic acids.
The key is timing so winter bees are produced after the brood break. Until SMR/VSH colonies are widely available and adapted to all local environments (many years away) it’s my view it’s worth trying alternative methods that reduce the use of chemicals.

I think you've misunderstood my meaning. By not advocating brood destruction, I don't automatically mean I support chemical treatment.
Those of you who've been around a while know I don't treat my bees. Nor do I need to resort to artificial swarms or other intervention.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Except that’s not backed up by the science on 300 colonies that survived the winter and performed ahead of control colonies treated by organic acids.

So did each one of the 300 control colonies perform worse than the caged queen ones?
And what about the 300 colonies that had no intervention whatsoever?

 

[elainemary]

So did each one of the 300 control colonies perform worse than the caged queen ones?
And what about the 300 colonies that had no intervention whatsoever?

There was no significant difference in post treatment colony strength 70 days after treatment & again by the following Spring, between control colonies (that had OA treatment) and the 3 types of interruption: Q caging, brood removal and comb trapping. The results looked at groups as a whole, rather than reporting on individual colonies & it was carried out on 370 colonies in 11 locations in 10 countries. They didn't look at colonies with no intervention at all, he did say that unless the colony is varroa resistant, within 2 years they tend to collapse with no control of varroa.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There was no significant difference in post treatment colony strength 70 days after treatment & again by the following Spring, between control colonies (that had OA treatment) and the 3 types of interruption: Q caging, brood removal and comb trapping. The results looked at groups as a whole, rather than reporting on individual colonies & it was carried out on 370 colonies in 11 locations in 10 countries. They didn't look at colonies with no intervention at all, he did say that unless the colony is varroa resistant, within 2 years they tend to collapse with no control of varroa.

so not really 'backed up' by any science then, and no 'significant difference' rather then your claim that they 'performed ahead' In fact, not a very scientific approach at all by the looks of it.

 

[elainemary]

Elainemary. Please do let us know in 18 months time how things go. I presume you will be running control colonies too?

Intend to try on a small number of colonies this July / August, so unlikely to be scientifically robust study. I'll be using regular treatments on the rest of my colonies. Like to try things and make sure there's a benefit before using more widely. A friend who saw the lectures is comb trapping on 2 colonies whilst I'll try Q caging. We intent to compare notes. Yes, I'll let you know how it goes pre winter and again in the Spring.

 

[Erichalfbee]

There was no significant difference in post treatment colony strength 70 days after treatment & again by the following Spring, between control colonies (that had OA treatment) and the 3 types of interruption: Q caging, brood removal and comb trapping. The results looked at groups as a whole, rather than reporting on individual colonies & it was carried out on 370 colonies in 11 locations in 10 countries. They didn't look at colonies with no intervention at all, he did say that unless the colony is varroa resistant, within 2 years they tend to collapse with no control of varroa.

I’m sorry if this is in the report but can you tell me what the OA intervention was?

 

[elainemary]

so not really 'backed up' by any science then, and no 'significant difference' rather then your claim that they 'performed ahead' In fact, not a very scientific approach at all by the looks of it.

Colloss backed study, definitely scientifically solid. I used Ralph's words from his presentation.
The purpose of my original post was to ask if anyone had experience of this method. Now I know the answer to this; the trials that have been done so far give me enough evidence to want to try it.

I’m sorry if this is in the report but can you tell me what the OA intervention was?

He stated in his lecture they used trickling and sublimation on colonies that were broodless.