Queen cage - varroa management

[GuyNir]

I was wondering that.

Above all, I just have to pass on any method which requires the wholesale destruction of large quantities of brood. It's not that I don't respect the science, I just prefer methods of controlling varroa that don't require the killing of thousands of larvae or bees in capped cells.

I was also interested to note that he says that the wintering success (a key metric if ever there was one) was better where his methods were applied in May (i.e. during classic swarm season), but that this isn't desirable as it reduces the honey crop, thus he recommends July. Wintering success wasn't one of the statistics he gave in his charts though.

I thought his graph showed best results when doing this in July.

 

[Boston Bees]

You melt down 3 good looking frames of larva per colony.

Why that many? Buchler seems to recommend one or two?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

By using the frame caging method you don't have this though.
The idea is to create a situation were there is only one frame with open brood so the varroa have to go to that frame. Removing that frame then removes a large amount of varroa.

I've got some magic beans here going cheap - shall I put some to one side for you?

 

[GuyNir]

It is somewhat worrying destroying 3 frames like this.
View attachment 24318

Lots of bees this. So much work already done...

 

[Parsonage Bees]

Why that many? Buchler seems to recommend one or two?

The diagram he showed was still in german. Bannwabe = frame, BW1,2 and 3. I had to do it for it to fully make sense.

The original post is talking about queen caging rather than frame caging. Can't remember whether he mentioned the former where you'd only need one frame with brood at the end.

 

[Erichalfbee]

By using the frame caging method you don't have this though.
The idea is to create a situation were there is only one frame with open brood so the varroa have to go to that frame. Removing that frame then removes a large amount of varroa.

But where is the large amount of varroa before it goes into that frame of open brood?

 

[Boston Bees]

The diagram he showed was still in german. Bannwabe = frame, BW1,2 and 3. I had to do it for it to fully make sense.

The original post is talking about queen caging rather than frame caging. Can't remember whether he mentioned the former where you'd only need one frame with brood at the end.

View attachment 24319

Sorry - got you now - I got confused with which one of his methods you had followed.

Thanks

 

[BigAshW]

I've got some magic beans here going cheap - shall I put some to one side for you?

I'm just going by the research of a respected scientist. He has the data to back up his claim and I don't see why I shouldn't look into it. That's why I'll be monitoring my mite numbers and can take alternative action if needed.

Magic beans would be me saying I'm stuffing rhubarb leaves into my hive during the spring equinox...

 

[BigAshW]

But where is the large amount of varroa before it goes into that frame of open brood?

In the sealed brood that hatches out while the process is taking place I would assume.

To be clear I'm not talking about caging the queen. My preference was trapping the queen on a frame. Ralph gave three options during his talk if I remember correctly.

So the brood cycle isn't disrupted as far as she is concerned and any varroa in the hive would be there causing damage whether you do this or not.

The process aims to control the location of open brood giving the mites only one option for where to go to continue their reproductive cycle. Therefore you end up sacrificing 2 to three frames of brood to target the mites.

His numbers showed this did not have any effect on the colony strength going into winter and was effective in controlling varroa mites.

I think it's worth a look and to see if it works for me.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think it's worth a look and to see if it works for me.

Sure
I’m just keen beginners don’t think this is the magic answer when there are effective ways to manage varroa already that are much simpler and involve less fiddling.
When I was in Practice I was a keen practitioner of “just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should”

 

[GuyNir]

In the sealed brood that hatches out while the process is taking place I would assume.

To be clear I'm not talking about caging the queen. My preference was trapping the queen on a frame. Ralph gave three options during his talk if I remember correctly.

So the brood cycle isn't disrupted as far as she is concerned and any varroa in the hive would be there causing damage whether you do this or not.

The process aims to control the location of open brood giving the mites only one option for where to go to continue their reproductive cycle. Therefore you end up sacrificing 2 to three frames of brood to target the mites.

His numbers showed this did not have any effect on the colony strength going into winter and was effective in controlling varroa mites.

I think it's worth a look and to see if it works for me.

+ Allow you to time OAV to be very effective at the end of the process.

 

[BigAshW]

Sure
I’m just keen beginners don’t think this is the magic answer when there are effective ways to manage varroa already that are much simpler and involve less fiddling.
When I was in Practice I was a keen practitioner of “just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should”

That's fine. I would never presume to tell anyone what they should be doing I'm just happy to share what my plan is.

If anyone is interested in seeing the data I collect from this I'm happy to share at the end of the year.

 

[user 20297]

Above all, I just have to pass on any method which requires the wholesale destruction of large quantities of brood. It's not that I don't respect the science, I just prefer methods of controlling varroa that don't require the killing of thousands of larvae or bees in capped cells.

My feelings too. At times, modern beekeeping (understandably) seems almost to edge towards becoming obsessed with "varroa-losing."

 

[Boston Bees]

I thought his graph showed best results when doing this in July.

I saw no chart on overwintering success, but he goes into raptures earlier in the presentation about how well the colonies that had their brood break in May overwintered, and admits that this shows that bees know what they are doing by swarming in May. But of course this is bad for honey production.

Could you copy in the chart you are talking about?

 

[Ian123]

As I said earlier brood breaks work but is it worth all the faff when other good alternatives are available. Also I wouldn’t go down the brood destruction route. If you are using a winter oxalic none should be considering it early season as there is no point what so ever.

 

[Boston Bees]

It is somewhat worrying destroying 3 frames like this.
View attachment 24318

Indeed. Worrying is putting it mildly. I can think of other adjectives but they would heat the discussion up which isn't desirable.

 

[gmonag]

The method the OP is talking about, and the one I am going to try this year does not involve killing any brood. You have to listen carefully to Buchler's presentation. He describes several options. The one that uses the Mozzato cage is best done in late July. No brood is sacrificed.
If it is the case that all the phoretic varroa damage the adult bees, whilst the colony is broodless, it seems that it does not matter, because the rationale of the method concentrates on the production of healthy winter bees.

 

[Boston Bees]

The method the OP is talking about, and the one I am going to try this year does not involve killing any brood. You have to listen carefully to Buchler's presentation. He describes several options. The one that uses the Mozzato cage is best done in late July. No brood is sacrificed.
If it is the case that all the phoretic varroa damage the adult bees, whilst the colony is broodless, it seems that it does not matter, because the rationale of the method concentrates on the production of healthy winter bees.

You are right about Buchler (though the OP did talk about possibly then using a trap frame then destroying it).

Let us know how it goes please. Genuinely interested. It would be interesting to compare it with leaving the queen alone and just using, say, Apivar, or whatever, if you can do both in the same apiary.

Though still not 100% sure why, given that Buchler recommends using an OA vape after the caging, why it isn't easier and kinder (and just as effective?) to just do 3 or 4 OA vapes and leave the queen to do what comes naturally.

 

[rook66]

Sure
I’m just keen beginners don’t think this is the magic answer when there are effective ways to manage varroa already that are much simpler and involve less fiddling.
When I was in Practice I was a keen practitioner of “just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should”

I agree, there are so many simpler ways to control varroa, I would like to hear from beekeepers who practised queen caging for three weeks? Were there any long term after effects, ie egg viability

 

[holmbee]

You are right about Buchler (though the OP did talk about possibly then using a trap frame then destroying it).

Let us know how it goes please. Genuinely interested. It would be interesting to compare it with leaving the queen alone and just using, say, Apivar, or whatever, if you can do both in the same apiary.

Though still not 100% sure why, given that Buchler recommends using an OA vape after the caging, why it isn't easier and kinder (and just as effective?) to just do 3 or 4 OA vapes and leave the queen to do what comes naturally.

The lecture that Buchler gave to Somerset last week is the same one he gave at the National Honey Show in 2019. That is available on U-Tube and is the third of four lectures he gave that year.
The advantage of using the queen trapping method in July is that you then have a certain brood break to use oxalic acid on bees that are about to be replaced with the next winter bees. With global warming, colonies are more likely to continue limited brood rearing through the winter making it trickier to time OA treatment.