Q Excluder on Poly hive

[drumgerry]

Just wondering what the experienced poly hive users do. Do you use a framed wire excluder? Perforated zinc sheet? Or just the wired excluder unframed?

Just starting this season with poly hives so would like to get it right.

Gerry

 

[Nic Rhodes]

I use wire on all my wooden hives but don't often bother with them on poly hives tbh. They work on more frames (to the edge of the box) and assuming they have enough room I find they 'stay down'. QE might then only be need when taking off honey but even then i haven't used one yet. Made more wires up for my woodies recently.

 

[local_beekeeper]

I will use on my new poly plastic queen excluder.

 

[Winker]

Perforated zinc sheet for me

 

[Queens59]

Whichever one I have spare when needed...

 

[drumgerry]

Thanks for the replies - much appreciated. Nic - I see what you're saying about using one for honey production even though I'm of a mind to do so. But I'd most certainly need one for the manipulations associated with queen rearing (using the Cook method).

Gerry

 

[Finman]

'
It should have a frame, what ever you use. Bees and queen will be squeezed it there is no proper gap between QE and frames.

Plastic is under half price.

Polyhive has no ecception what excluder you use.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

Gerry, i suspect that I will dust them off for Queen rearing duties in the summer as well but Queen excluders, Porter beed escapes are just seveal items all beekeepers have without actually asking do we we need them or is there a better way of doing what we are trying to achieve. Often there is. My poly ones are quite cheap but seem to do the job. My zinc plate ones old now but do the job. My wire ones look and feel excellent, especially my 'new' framed ones. They also do the job. A friend was telling me yesterday that he doesn't like his plastic ones but I don't think he has had a problems with the queen going to 'high'. Personally I like framed excluders, they mostly do the job (Thornes had a dodgy batch a while back they replaced for people quickly), and often it is down to the configuration in your hive / type.

 

[Poly Hive]

I use plastic ones and they work very well.

Porter nonsense is just that a piece of rubbish that in turn ruins crown boards which in my thoughts should NOT have a hole in them.

PH

 

[drumgerry]

PH - do you frame your plastic ones?

 

[Into the lions den]

Our weapon of choice in this is a good quality wooden framed wire excluder. They are the best.

Despite them causing problems in BS setups, perforated zincs are almost as good. However, the ones designed to be a neat fit inside the perimeter of the box are not to OUR liking. They require an unerring accuracy of placement, and a care not to slide boxes about that just eats time once you add it up at the end of the day. We had some of those and discarded them once we found we could take our old and long since obsolete zinc ones for Smiths, clean off one end thoroughly, and extend them using gorilla tape (the savage cloth backed silver stuff that sticks like nothng else) to comfortably cover the area. (So placement was simple and rapid)

Last choice is plastic..........some bees go through them just fine, others will not cross them and will swarm rather than work through them.

When you have compromised ventilation channels, as in the common BS sytem of Hoffman broods below the QEx with Manley supers above, then framed excluders are more important. The spacing is required for the air flow. If the bee space is compromised it can give issues, and with wooden hives and their shrinkage and expansion especially in old pine and home made units, zincs, unframed, are a potential problem.

In poly however the bee space SHOULD not be an issue, just so long as you keep to one type of setup. Traditionally in Langstroth and Smith this is a full bee space at the top of the box, and none at the bottom. Using one size of box and frame pattern in poly (which we do) then the bees transit through the excluder is almost entirely up and down continuous channels, and then the zincs, unframed, are every bit as effective.

Last month in Denmark I was shown some serious issues through one maker trying to get smart. All the boxes in the two outfits I saw were to a standard pattern, albeit from a range of makers. Top bee space Lang deeps. Unaware of the issue, one of the outfits bought a full truckload of boxes in from another maker, only to find that they had subtly changed away from standard spec to half bee space at top AND bottom. Beekeeper, rather than punt them back, thought it would be OK, no big issue. It IS an issue. Bee space and a half some places (LOTS of ladder comb).......half a bee space in others (combs practically welded together with wax and propolis). Then at the top of the hive, instad of the full bee space under the flush fitting roof or feeder (no recess for bee space) you can find only half a bee space...............lots of cleaning to make things sit down, and bee crushing between the upper parts and the top bars..........messy.

Came back to add this bit.........the opinion that it IS an issue was the Danish beekeepers, not mines. He showed me the mess it had caused him. I was a bit surprised to be honest at the junk the bees drew in the space and a half.

 

[oliver90owner]

It should have a frame, what ever you use. Bees and queen will be squeezed it there is no proper gap between QE and frames.

Finman is correct, but no real problem, for me, with replacing top space boxes, I think (as I only use wire excluders - so the 'open' area is far greater). With no frame, the excluder will be against one frame or the other.

Let's think about it. Unframed first.

Bottom bee space - doesn't matter a jot as it sticks to the top of the brood; as long as you don't drop it on the queen (and you won't see the queen on top of the frames very often!) it's no real problem and exactly the same as most timber hives.
Top bee space and it will likely stick to the frames above. Not so good if Queenie was on it - it happens - and if it comes down with a bump.... or even rested elsewhere...

Sheet excluders will sag, so generally need a frame on top bee space configurations.

Properly framed excluders should be able to reduce or eliminate any and /or all the above shortcomings of the unframed excluder.

I have not bothered with frames for several of my timber hive excluders as they are all, now, wire ones, and are not generally put on for so long (end of OSR and sometimes for reducing to the one box, ready for winter).

I've never bothered with clearer boards (porter, or otherwise) when trying to get/keep the queen downstairs. Cannot see any connection with the question. For me, is only for when there is still brood in a shallow that I bother with the excluder.

Your hive type may have some bearing on your particular decision. All polys are not equal and it is only a queen excluder, after all.

With Nic on this one mainly, but it looks like each goes with what they have at the time

I will be using a frame with mine, I think, as I will perhaps need to avoid the excluder being stuck to the upper frames, what with the 'famous' lip on the MB hives. However, by that time, the lip on that section may have gone from mine, so it may not matter a jot....

RAB

 

[Poly Hive]

Do I frame mine? No.

Does it cause me any issues, again No.

I find plastic excluders as simple to use as zinc, or as difficult if you like.

PH

 

[BBG]

Zinc or plastic (we use) with polyhives all sag.

To combat this we put a small block of wood at centre frame for it to rest on.

They build less brace comb when the block is correct thickness.

Applies to inner hive covers too, if used.

 

[Cazza]

Zinc or plastic (we use) with polyhives all sag.

To combat this we put a small block of wood at centre frame for it to rest on.

They build less brace comb when the block is correct thickness.

Applies to inner hive covers too, if used.

Good tip. Tvm.
Cazza

 

[drstitson]

good tip - saves on framing plus crossbar.

getting back to the beespace issues - given that most of us are on suitably sized broods and will never fall back on brood and a half - can anyone explain why it isn't sensible to use TBS brood boxes and BBS supers?

 

[oliver90owner]

It IS an issue.

ITLD, while it can be an issue, it doesn't need to be. 8mm thick frames with the excuder matrix fitted centrally would be a simple fix for those with just the one type. Obviously, mixing boxes/excluder types would create problems. Same with cover boards - the obvious way forward might be a 4mm strip on one side and an eke-wide batten on the other side.

These things need to be kept in perspective. I would say it was an issue in the case you described, but otherwise CAN BE an issue, if the purchaser does not think, and know what they are getting before purchase. It is evident on this thread that assumptions are made. Nationals are predominantly bottom bee space but are also offered as top bee space configuration, too. Far too many might read these threads without realising there are options, and so those options sometimes need stating clearly (where the different formats have different outcomes).

Some, of course, do not recognise - or wish to ignore - that these variations do occur within a hive type. Half bee space is unusual - I've not come across it before - so which sharp/clever manufacturer is this?

RAB

 

[drstitson]

"Half bee space is unusual - I've not come across it before"

check out your poly nuc(s).

 

[oliver90owner]

why it isn't sensible to use TBS brood boxes and BBS supers?

Even with a 14 x 12, I allow queenie to lay upstairs at peak times. I don't use Q/Es all that often, or for long each year. So for me, it would be a disastrous combination, with far more than a bee space to be filled with comb, and probably with brood in it.

Why go looking for trouble? Might be OK for some, but not the unknowing...

Regards, RAB

 

[Into the lions den]

It IS an issue.
These things need to be kept in perspective. I would say it was an issue in the case you described, but otherwise CAN BE an issue, if the purchaser does not think, and know what they are getting before purchase.Some, of course, do not recognise - or wish to ignore - that these variations do occur within a hive type. Half bee space is unusual - I've not come across it before - so which sharp/clever manufacturer is this?

The guy in question has in excess of 1000 hives.............so has about 4000 deep boxes in service, and bought an extra 1000 or so to add to his stock, all of which are intended to be interchangeable. Only later did he realise the issues this bit of design twiddling would cause him. Even the big boys make errors.....and ours usually have more noughts on the end of the bill. He just never checked, assuming there would be no issue as they were sold to him as perfectly normal polystyrene standard depth langstroths.

I will tell you privately whose boxes they were.