Preparation for overwintering polynucs

[Illo]

A few weeks ago I retrieved a tiny cast from a neighbour's garden. The queen mated and they are slowly building up - her laying pattern is good, though she is small. But the colony seems to be gaining in strength, and is doing a good job at fending off firstly marauding robbers and now the resident wasp population. They are industrious, and have a nice temperament, which is always a bonus.

Rather than consolidate them with another colony, I'd like to overwinter them - as much to gain the experience. They are in a 6-frame 14x12 poly nuc and at the moment they are on just about three frames, one of which was a frame of emerging brood added from another colony to bolster their numbers a little.

Can anyone offer advice on the size/strength of the colony required to get through the winter, and any tips for success (as well as feed and keep warm I guess?). I'm told these poly nucs overwinter well, though I have never used one in this situation.

Any advice gratefully received!

 

[user 6228]

A few weeks ago I retrieved a tiny cast from a neighbour's garden. The queen mated and they are slowly building up - her laying pattern is good, though she is small. But the colony seems to be gaining in strength, and is doing a good job at fending off firstly marauding robbers and now the resident wasp population. They are industrious, and have a nice temperament, which is always a bonus.

Rather than consolidate them with another colony, I'd like to overwinter them - as much to gain the experience. They are in a 6-frame 14x12 poly nuc and at the moment they are on just about three frames, one of which was a frame of emerging brood added from another colony to bolster their numbers a little.

Can anyone offer advice on the size/strength of the colony required to get through the winter, and any tips for success (as well as feed and keep warm I guess?). I'm told these poly nucs overwinter well, though I have never used one in this situation.

Any advice gratefully received!

A nuc needs more insulation than a hive because of volume to surface area ratio. Your nuc should really have a minimum 40mm kingspan all round.

 

[VEG]

It's a poly nuc

 

[drstitson]

"it's a poly nuc"

just because it's a poly nuc doesn't mean it has enough insulation.

this is particularly true of the thin roofs of the ****** ones (both v1 & v2)

i've posted before picture of the type of roof i use on mine (deep wood, metal top and 50mm kingspan within) which stop condensation problems on the clear crown board.

 

[user 6228]

It's a poly nuc

if it was wood then 50mm pir all round but it was poly so 35mm.

Most poly hives and nucs are just "wood subsititute" and not engineered to be insulating. vis. thin walls, large cold spots for hand holds, narrow mating faces.
they are more insulating than wood but not as much as they could be. They fall considerably short of a tree nest

 

[Tom Bick]

A nuc needs more insulation than a hive because of volume to surface area ratio. Your nuc should really have a minimum 40mm kingspan all round.

I seem to manage with 12mm plywood although a bit of 25mm insulation in the roof.

 

[Finman]

They are in a 6-frame 14x12 poly nuc and at the moment they are on just about three frames, one of which was a frame of emerging brood added from another colony to bolster their numbers a little.

!

It is better if you give a frame of emerging bees from bigger hive that the queen can lay those 6 frames. Give food frames to big hives, but not pollen. You have much time to grow a good colony.

If you have mesh floor, shut it.

6 frame poly nuc needs no extra insulation in your winter.

,

 

[Finman]

if
Most poly hives and nucs are just "wood subsititute" and not engineered to be insulating. vis. thin walls, large cold spots for hand holds, narrow mating faces.

Dre, could you stop that rubbish speaking. - I suppose, not

Mere rubbish

.

 

[itma]

Well, I think its too early to give up getting them up to strength just yet.

If you can save them from having to draw comb, you can allow them to devote more bee-power to brood tending.
Same with a bit of feeding. Maybe even a bit of pollen patty.
And if there are any more waifs, strays, casts or excess that you can add to them, you could be well beyond the nuc stage by mid October - 10 weeks away still ...


Anyway, if its a Payns poly nuc, best to close off the integral feeder completely.
An extra poly eke holds s plastic rapid feeder - and/or a good load of winter insulation.
They usually discount poly stuff in an October sale, so maybe worth hanging on for that!

 

[VEG]

I don't use any insulation in mine never have done

 

[itma]

Dre, could you stop that rubbish speaking. - I suppose, not

Mere rubbish

.

DerekM is referring to specific products on the British market, which I am pretty sure you have not seen.
It is "rubbish" for you to discuss details on product that you are completely unfamiliar with.

Specifically (and wrongly) the Payns National/14x12 poly nuc does have a roof that is thinner than the walls.
It does need more insulation to prevent condensation dripping onto the frames and bees.
/ Same goes for their national poly roof too. Probably the biggest selling poly hive in the UK at the moment. I added a super of celotex insulation board above the coverboard - to good effect.

 

[drstitson]

the ****** roof is only around 1.5cm thick (since it sits over a raised lip).

below are pics of the condensation before insulation (late nov), and the nuc before & after modification. The roof is made of thick ply offcuts (21mm i think so nice and sturdy). the roof metal was intended for a Langstroth roof.

 

[Finman]

DerekM is referring to specific products on the British market, which I am pretty sure you have not seen.
It is "rubbish" for you to discuss details on product that you are completely unfamiliar with.

.

I say about Derekems comment that those commercial polyhives are rubbish.

I know about them something. I have had them 25 years. I have had nucs too. I have wintered 2 frames nucs in -20C temp, but aided with 3W electríct. No one here start to over winter under 5 frame nucs, if he is serious.


Modern polyhives have 4 cm thick walls when older model had a mirror in the wall and the thickness is 2 cm. That 2 cm thickes is splended insulation even in our winter, which often goes down to -30C.

I just wonder, from where all that wisdom has dropped NOW to someone in UK?

Just rubbish.
Guys in Scandianavia have nursed thousands of polyhives during last 20 years. How insulation wisdom arises from UK, where is not even winter.
You do not even understand, what winter means to bees.

First of all, it is a long period 6-7 months when bees cannot visit out at all.
You write there that your hives get pollen in December and in January. Ridiculous claim that you have winter there.
.

 

[Finman]

.
How much you guys understand beekeeping business after all? Toykeeping is own story?

What ever the hive is, it must be handy. Serious beekeeping is based on migrative nursing. If you have 500 hives, you cannot keep them on back yard.

Not even 20 hives. It is too much in one place. With your honey yield per hive level you have absolutely too much hives per square mile.

My friend (old, age 75 y) just called that he got on average 140 kg honey per hive. Draw from that.

 

[Finman]

.
Just now I have 20 polynuc hives out. They are 3-5 frame mating nucs.
I know very well what that size colony does.

I have splitted normal polyboxes with table saw.
They have thin ply floor and roof is 3 cm blue polyurethane insulation board.

The queens have layed now about week. It is time to put them in normal hive.
Yield is over. I take a box of bees from outer yard and I put the queens lay into that box. That easy.

from 3 frame nuc to 10 frames hive in one week. Many big hives have now 7 boxes bees and those all will die during autumn. recycling, i would say.

I can give now oxalic acid trickling to bees. I do not move brood to nucs.

 

[Jimmys Mum]

Anyway, if its a Payns poly nuc, best to close off the integral feeder completely.
An extra poly eke holds s plastic rapid feeder - and/or a good load of winter insulation.
They usually discount poly stuff in an October sale, so maybe worth hanging on for that!

I have an identical situation with bees from a cast swarm on 3 14x12 frames and building nicely.
Does anyone know if I can use two ekes stacked one on top of one another? I have one on the poly nuc already which makes the it suitable for my 14x12 set up, but I like the idea of being able to add extra insulation above the crown board within a second eke.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I seem to manage with 12mm plywood although a bit of 25mm insulation in the roof.

They over winter well here in 9mm ply boxes, also a bit of insulation in the roof void.

 

[Finman]

They over winter well here in 9mm ply boxes, also a bit of insulation in the roof void.

But the question is not only that they go alive over winter. The most important is the build up, how long it takes that the colony has foraging bees and home bees and brood in balance that colony can make surplus honey. What kind of masses new bees you get when nature blooms?

This year it took 7 weeks that my best hives were able to forage good yield. When my small hives started to forage, and big ones had got 50 kg per hive.

It takes 6 weeks when an egg will be an forager. The amount of brood rules how much you have foragers after 6 weeks. It is 1,5 months.

I wonder what goals that serves if you put the most thin inner cover and mesh floor open. What is the big idea then in beekeeping!!!!

Quite many are proud that they make extreme conditions to the bees ...but but but WHY . You have enough proplems with your maritime climate and rains.


.

.

 

[Hivemaker.]

But the question is not only that they go alive over winter. The most important is the build up

They build up fast in spring, many are now in three brood boxes with three or even four supers....ready to start splitting them up into more over wintering nucs in the next month.

 

[user 6228]

Dre, could you stop that rubbish speaking. - I suppose, not

Mere rubbish

.

no it isnt rubbish I 've measure the heat loss of well known finnish brands of poly on sale inthe UK and have infra-red thermographs showing the high heat loss though the hand holds.
I make my statements on heat loss through research and measurement. Its not dependant on my climate or ethnic background

No Poly hive or Nuc on sale in the UK quotes a thermal conductance value. I havent been albe to find any poly nuc or hive anywhere that quotes a thermal conductance value.
since they do not quote a value one can surmise that it wasnt a design criteria. An poly hive thats sufficiently strong to withstand handling is going to have a lower conductance than common wooden hive. The design of the products clearly indicate that low conductance is a secondary feature, as ease of lifting and carrying has overidden preventing heat loss.