Poly roofs

[Hedgerow Honey]

I like ITLD response, should have added with my own system I leave the feeders on for two purposes, that is the added insulation they provide and with all the supers home I have nowhere to store them.

 

[Beefriendly]

To add to the OP's question this is the overhang and lack of depth you get when you add a Paynes roof to a National hive, compared to an Abelo Poly Roof.

 

[Beefriendly]

The issue is with the Paynes BB's is that instead of keeping the slot which prevented mice they enlarged it to take that daft entrance block.

The shape of the front makes it impossible to fix a mouse guard. So they went from a design which excluded mice to one with encourages them.

As I said insane. I hate things which need "bits" as in the hurly burly of life they get broken or lost. I know they probably did this for patent reasons but its still a very poor thin product.

And no I don't have any. Thankfully.

PH

Now as ITLD has set you up as the "Poly" expert, perhaps you can explain how a mouse gets past this into a Paynes poly hive?

 

[Into the lions den]

Now as ITLD has set you up as the "Poly" expert, perhaps you can explain how a mouse gets past this into a Paynes poly hive?

I think you may have missed his point..............of course you can go out and fit blocks.....but with the correct design.......in both wood and poly...you don't need them. Its just another task and another thing to lose or break.

 

[Beefriendly]

Fortunately I am just a hobbyist and can indulge in inefficiency....

Although if you are fitting mouse guards Shirley these are just another thing to lose or break. Plus they take longer to fix in place as opposed to simply sliding a block into place........

 

[Jimmy]

To add to the OP's question this is the overhang and lack of depth you get when you add a Paynes roof to a National hive, compared to an Abelo Poly Roof.

Thanks, that's useful to see.

 

[Into the lions den]

To put you on the spot...

If you were starting out again as a commercial beekeeper, and cost wasn't an issue, what would be your set up from floor, through to roof, feeders, queen excluders, beespace, single double brood, poly/wood, national/lang/dadent etc...

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That's easy.

Start with using only ONE size of box, every box interchangeable with every other. Ultimate in flexibility...you can run 1, 2, brood...or even free run. We use all three systems, just at different stages of the season.

Simple flush floor...maybe with corner engaging places like the old German Kombi floor. (which we use in our poly setup) that takes simple flush edged Langstroth boxes.

You should budget on 4 to 5 deeps boxes (if that is what you choose) per hive.

Yes Langstroth. Its the easiest box to source internationally. Be careful with frame sizes as there are local variants...usually not huge variants. For example if you go with mediums...which are called supers for the most part here, and then order shallow frames......they will be a good inch short.....the normally international shallow box is called a super most places, a medium in North America, and Dadant depth here (we just HAVE to be different!), so check your ordering twice...and if possible buy against sample.

(Quite some years ago a UK maker made 5000 frames for me for supers...and when they turned up it was the wrong depth of sidebars..their fault...they replaced them FOC, but with the fragmented UK market they had firewood for kindling for some years....).

Wire your frames...not your wax. Unwired wax into wired frames....much cheaper foundation and far quicker rewaxing. Harder start up as you have the frames to wire ( buy GOOD wire, not off the shelf stretchy rubbish) which takes time (and thus money) but it pays itelf back many time over the life of the frame. All that only applies if you cannot buy them in fully assembled and wired which we do now.

Have a metal excluder, framed to bee space, for every hive. The more your bees tend to Amm the more important hat becomes....they especially are not fond of plastic excluders (or foundation) whereas carnies or buckfasts are less fussy.

Have a poly feeder...a big oe...3 galls...for every hive and feed it full in autumn and leave the hive completely alone (the odd nosey aside) until spring.

Its the cheapest way to buy gear. All Langstroth and source standard from anywhere you can get the best price.



...........says the man just setting up 750 new WOODEN hives.

That's a long story involving reselling of full hives and landowners dislike of poly on some heather estates. For simple basic beefarming the one size poly only Langstroth only is the way to go.

If poly is too expensive for you or you do not like it for some reason....keep to the same rules with wooden hives......there are some great deals out there if you really shop around....I mean REALLY shop around...your best price is not often found in the UK (but can be).

 

[Into the lions den]

To add to the OP's question this is the overhang and lack of depth you get when you add a Paynes roof to a National hive, compared to an Abelo Poly Roof.

These are not meant to be direct competitors. There are two main variants of production on Nationals.

The smaller perimeter roof is meant for hives designed to fit on the 'compatible' camp of poly national...outside size is the same as wood and they can be used together. The outside size kept the same, but take a frame less due to sidewall thickness.

The larger perimeter roof is not intended to be used that way, it is purely for the 'non compatible' option, where the INNER size of the box is kept as per traditional sizing. However this makes the OUTER sizing...with insulation thickness maintained... considerably larger.

The right hand roof you have there is not designed for the hive it is on.

However you might come to regret taking a roof with such deep sides on it....which I think is another 'improvement' made after beekeeper suggestions. Its not needed and the Polish material is normally very hard but also more brittle and I can see them taking damage.

 

[Poly Hive]

Thank you ITLD for your very kind remarks.

I think I bought my first poly in 1990. And if you wanted to run "National" you cut Langstroth into bits and reassembled with a rebate on the long side, and with Smith top bars you could get 12 frames in. Langstroth supers on top. From the offcuts with some dowels and glue further BBs could be made up. From four Langstroth it came out as five.

Where has the time gone?

PH

 

[BMH]

That's easy.



Start with using only ONE size of box, every box interchangeable with every other. Ultimate in flexibility...you can run 1, 2, brood...or even free run. We use all three systems, just at different stages of the season.



Simple flush floor...maybe with corner engaging places like the old German Kombi floor. (which we use in our poly setup) that takes simple flush edged Langstroth boxes.



You should budget on 4 to 5 deeps boxes (if that is what you choose) per hive.



Yes Langstroth. Its the easiest box to source internationally. Be careful with frame sizes as there are local variants...usually not huge variants. For example if you go with mediums...which are called supers for the most part here, and then order shallow frames......they will be a good inch short.....the normally international shallow box is called a super most places, a medium in North America, and Dadant depth here (we just HAVE to be different!), so check your ordering twice...and if possible buy against sample.



(Quite some years ago a UK maker made 5000 frames for me for supers...and when they turned up it was the wrong depth of sidebars..their fault...they replaced them FOC, but with the fragmented UK market they had firewood for kindling for some years....).



Wire your frames...not your wax. Unwired wax into wired frames....much cheaper foundation and far quicker rewaxing. Harder start up as you have the frames to wire ( buy GOOD wire, not off the shelf stretchy rubbish) which takes time (and thus money) but it pays itelf back many time over the life of the frame. All that only applies if you cannot buy them in fully assembled and wired which we do now.



Have a metal excluder, framed to bee space, for every hive. The more your bees tend to Amm the more important hat becomes....they especially are not fond of plastic excluders (or foundation) whereas carnies or buckfasts are less fussy.



Have a poly feeder...a big oe...3 galls...for every hive and feed it full in autumn and leave the hive completely alone (the odd nosey aside) until spring.



Its the cheapest way to buy gear. All Langstroth and source standard from anywhere you can get the best price.







...........says the man just setting up 750 new WOODEN hives.



That's a long story involving reselling of full hives and landowners dislike of poly on some heather estates. For simple basic beefarming the one size poly only Langstroth only is the way to go.



If poly is too expensive for you or you do not like it for some reason....keep to the same rules with wooden hives......there are some great deals out there if you really shop around....I mean REALLY shop around...your best price is not often found in the UK (but can be).

Thanks for the detailed response.

It's so different for hobbyists isn't it? I really like the idea of having a single size of box but say I wanted 20 hives or 100 brood boxes and went to negotiate with a supplier, the cost of 20 floors, 20 roofs and 100 brood boxes, would be so much more than 20 x bundled hives with supers etc.

I glad you noted the wire qx and poly feeders. I think they really help and have a wire qx with wooden frame and swienty poly feeder for every hive. Definitely make feeding syrup and fondant a lot easier and provide significant insulation above the cluster in winter.

I have a mixture of wood and poly supers but never leave any wood on the hive over winter, with the exception of the floor.

I started off wiring my own frames and have given into wired foundation. I think going forward I may just give in and buy it in prewired. It's too painful doing frames every day!

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[BMH]

I mastic and pin a 4in piece plasterers corner bead to two sides..it works a treat

You have inspired me!

Had some left over heavy duty racking. 3mm painted steel. Gorilla glue and a screw. Tightened up with the strap and it's set like stone


Thanks for the tip

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[Poly Hive]

My roofs have a shallow notch where the spanset has taken a bite. It never deepens.

If its an issue ask if the quality of the roof is up to scratch.

PH

 

[Millet]

You have inspired me!

Had some left over heavy duty racking. 3mm painted steel. Gorilla glue and a screw. Tightened up with the strap and it's set like stone


Thanks for the tip

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Looking good... and dented roof edges are a thing of the past...

 

[pargyle]

I know this started out as a roofs thread but it seems to have diverged a bit.

As a hobbyist I like the Paynes Poly hives .. they are thick and reasonably dense poly. They don't damage easily and as long as you give them a good coat of paint they don't deteriorate - I know they can suffer a bit from UV degradation if you don't paint them as I was given a couple of supers that had not been painted and the surface was a bit friable - I don't know how old they were. But .. even then a coat of paint on the top and they have been fine ever since.

The brood boxes sit nicely on the floors (I know people dislike those corner lugs but I find that they do keep everything together when you have to move them). I run 14 x 12's so rarely need two brood boxes in my neck of the woods but I have thought, occasionally, about the possible impact that the corner cut outs would have if stacking brood boxes. I always have an empty super on top of the stack with a filling of Kingspan which keeps them nice and snug but I make my own 6mm polycarbonate crown boards and don't use the flimsy ones that come with the hives (they get recycled for sealing up stacks of supers when they are not in use).

One of the early bits of beekeeping advice I was given was decide what system/size/type of hive you are going to use and stick to it - interchangibility is vital if you are not going to get frustrated and so, having found Paynes and started with them - I've stuck with them. Yes, they are not perfect but - there are few offerings that are totally perfect and certainly when I made my initial decision the cost/convenience/bee-friendly characteristics of Paynes ticked enough boxes for me.

I also like the entrance blocks - they give a decent size entrance for the season and when you turn them through 90 degress the three holes are an effective mouse guard. If you need to lock the bees in a piece of aluminium tape over the three holes is an instant and solid way of keeping them in. If you need to get the entrance block out ... a bent wire coat hanger has it out in no time.

I've never had a roof blow off - none of my hives have ever been in a location where they were not sheltered from a gale and a housebrick on the top of the roof has always been adequate - although I have strapped hives for travelling and the cut outs under the floor are good to keep the hive strap from slipping.

Would I make the same choice again if I was starting from scratch - I don't know. What you have never had you don't miss and I'm certainly not going to dump 10 boxes and 30 odd supers to start again at present. If I win the lottery .. well maybe ? I'd certainly have a look at the market .. but .. I still would not be mixing types.

 

[BMH]

My roofs have a shallow notch where the spanset has taken a bite. It never deepens.



If its an issue ask if the quality of the roof is up to scratch.



PH

They are about 6 different batches of Swienty roof.

I like my straps nice and tight as I strap onto the pallet. Bit of extra reinforcement can't hurt right?

Saves any dents or opening up the poly surface to moisture

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[Beefriendly]

The right hand roof you have there is not designed for the hive it is on.

However you might come to regret taking a roof with such deep sides on it....which I think is another 'improvement' made after beekeeper suggestions. Its not needed and the Polish material is normally very hard but also more brittle and I can see them taking damage.

Yes, thank you for pointing out the obvious...... I was demonstrating to the OP that his idea of using Paynes sized Roofs on standard National hives was, perhaps, not a good idea.

Doubt I'll regret the poly Abelo roofs, best thing I've come across in years. Deep roofs have been about for donkey's years, some of my old inherited deep wooden national ones are 40+ years old, so doubt deep roofs are simply another "improvement" made after beekeeper suggestion.

You forget that as a hobbyist I can indulge in little inefficient fads that please me, something you commercial guys often fail to appreciate in your apparently constant quest for maximum honey for minimum work.

 

[Into the lions den]

Doubt I'll regret the poly Abelo roofs, best thing I've come across in years. Deep roofs have been about for donkey's years, some of my old inherited deep wooden national ones are 40+ years old, so doubt deep roofs are simply another "improvement" made after beekeeper suggestion.

.

Yes indeed. Have seen some wooden roofs that telescoped almost down as far as the floor if on a single brood hive. Of course you can have what you want, but deep roofs largely went out of fashion a long time ago. Intermediate depth, like that one in your pictures is, are still widely made by the UK equipment suppliers, so must still be reasonably popular with quite a few people.

Not in our units, as we did not have many and those few went to the bonfire, but a significant number of bee people actually cut down their deep roofs to shallow ones. (talking historically here)

There are quite a lot of things that are due to beekeeper thinking and are actually not important to the bees.

A deep roof in winter on a wooden hive has some merit as it makes it like a partially double walled hive, so a little bit warmer, but in poly its not needed as the thermal properties of the walls alone exceed those of a double walled wooden hive.

 

[Poly Hive]

My straps twang when tightened and with Spansets believe me they are bloody tight.

Like I say the dent never deepens so why bother? Because you can I suppose.

For me sorry but its just not an issue. *shrug*

PH

 

[ericbeaumont]

It's so different for hobbyists isn't it?

Not really; in fact, no; or rather, it ought not to be.

We're in this pickle because BKAs teach beginners to use routine pet equipment, and too many small UK companies chase those innocent novices and offer them too much choice, and by the time they have a few hives they're lost in the mire of fiddly systems and small-scale solutions. Of course, some like to fiddle and fettle, but that is not a cost-effective or lean system for either amateur or commercial beekeeper.

On top of that, the world tells us that choice is good. In fact, choice is often a waste of energy - you can buy 494 colour combinations of a Fiat 500 gearknob, but what lasting good does it do for the driver? Einstein understood that choice gets in the way of thinking: his wardrobe only contained identical suits and so he didn't waste time pondering What shall I wear today? or even I've got nothing to wear! and instead spent the time conjuring Einsteinian ideas. Probably avoided a few shopping trips, to boot.

In a way, ITLD's recipe is Einsteinian: Start with using only ONE size of box, every box interchangeable with every other.

I dream of selling my Nationals and going to a Lang poly, one box system; I'd use Honey Paw. As the reality of such a decision sinks in (and especially the cash complications) I plod on with the BBS Nationals, bought piecemeal over the years, and recommended (you guessed it) by my BKA.

PS: if the flames of this topic shown signs of dying, have a read of David Evans' latest post on his blog The Apiarist: he gets stuck into the design flaws of the Abelo floor.

 

[BMH]

My straps twang when tightened and with Spansets believe me they are bloody tight.



Like I say the dent never deepens so why bother? Because you can I suppose.



For me sorry but its just not an issue. *shrug*



PH

Each to their own. I find the swienty roofs dent very easily and it's clearly a weak area once the dents start to open up.

Took me 5 mins to cut and stick and cost me less than £1 worth of glue. Might be overkill but I like overkill as long as it's cheap.

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