Poly Nucs and Hives

[BBG]

Hedgebee - try Vaseline!

 

[Poly Hive]

If your poly is so delicate you have to be dainty with it you have the wrong material.

Proper poly hives have to be robust and are. Yes the roofs are shallower than I would like so I put a brick on them which I use as an information point. If the colonies are very exposed then use two bricks and say to yourself you need a better site....lol

As for which way to go, I decided that years ago, and the bees I can tell you in all honesty prefer poly and behave differently in them too.

The scorching matter has been scotched now with (at long long last) the official pronouncement that washing soda is the answer.

There are them who will always prefer wood and that is their choice. However it amuses me no end to hear the anti poly argument from a beekeeper and then see a bonny wee mating hive on their premises... made from.... LOL

Lastly the big boys who can afford the change are moving into poly now. And they are doing it for cost effectiveness and for better returns. One of the biggest stated on here he got 20% more honey from his poly hives. So there you are the best argument of all.... Mair siller! (more money)

PH

 

[the naked beekeeper]

Only thing I worry about is scraping the hives free from brace comb/excess propolis.
Will it not puncture the poly?

 

[Finman]

.
My oldest polybox is labeled 1987. It is 24 y old. It is in good condition.

Last summer Ibought used boxes 6 euros a piece. 20 years old an good as new. Paint included.

If the poly box is broken, you may easily to repair it polyurethane glue.

You may clean then with hot lye water. Don't scrabe them.

Kill it bang - cleaning stuff is very efficient to clean individual boxes. Spread the chemical, let it affect end then wash it.


Wood or plastic - how natural? Stupid question?

Plywood as hive material - the most tremendous material. Heavy like rock.

 

[user 6228]

hi

Can i ask a stupid question?

Why have we suddenly decided that poly is the way to go forward for nucs and hives, instead of wood/ply.

surely wood should be the way to go as its a natural resource from a living tree that can be replaced easily. it is also much lower in Co2 production, neutral i would hope as trees are replanted when harvested.

im not sure where poly nucs come from but i would emagine it is oil based which is running out and shooting up in price, takes for ever to break down in landfill when broken, and really bad for the environment surely.

am i barking up the wrong tree? im just really confused.

Natural? Consumption of oil? Carbon footprint? Valid questions
Natural- a bee natural hive is a hollow tree. This means a bee is insulated from the winter weather by a serious thickness of timber more likely to be 100mm +. The bee hives we give bees have large areas of 12 - 20 mm - . To compensate we have to artificially feed sugar so that the hive produces extra heat to survive. The thermal properties of a poly hive are much closer to a bees natural home and consequently less stressful and more efficient
Consumption of oil- iwould contend
that polyhives use less oil since you Are not consuming the oil necessary to produce and transport the winter feed. Over the 30 year life time this could 360kg of sugar.
Carbon footprint- the carbon footprint from the production of 360kg of sugar and 10kg of wood is going to outweigh a 2kg poly hive .
Finally iwould argue a wood hive of typical construction is cruel in the amount of stress it puts on the bees.
I'm a beginner so don't listen to me. I will be moving our first colony into poly before winter.

 

[Tom Bick]

Hi Derek welcome to the forum and an interesting first post obviously gave it a lot of thought.

Interesting that you indicate that people with poly hives don’t need to feed syrup lol and can you expand on the stress a timber hive puts on the bees?

 

[Steve Dyer]

I suspect we are mixing two very different arguments here. The first issue is "are polyhives good?" The second issue is that of global warming. As beekeepers we surely want to keep bees in the best environment, and if polyhives are better then let's use them. I haven't tried one yet, but my main worry has been that they might break under the forces sometimes needed to break a propolis seal.

Global warming is a different discussion, but there is only one important factor in that discussion and that is that there are too many humans on the planet. Until you solve that problem we will continue building one coal-fired power station a week, and that's so significant compared with the warming created by making a few polyhives you don't need to consider it!

 

[user 6228]

Hi Derek welcome to the forum and an interesting first post obviously gave it a lot of thought.

Interesting that you indicate that people with poly hives don’t need to feed syrup lol and can you expand on the stress a timber hive puts on the bees?

more Thermally efficient hives will need less stores. My training in physics and chemistry means I can assert that as fact. Badly designed constructed or badly sited poly hives are not under consideration here.
The 12kg of sugar that some need to give means the bee colony is generating circa 20w to maintain temperature.
Increasing the thermal resistance of the hive means they need to generate less heat.

Placing an organism in more adverse circumstances than would naturally occur which requires high levels of exertion and
takes them near to the limits of its ability to survive, I would assume places it in a condition of stress.

 

[Steve Dyer]

more Thermally efficient hives will need less stores. My training in physics and chemistry means I can assert that as fact.
Placing an organism in more adverse circumstances than would naturally occur which requires high levels of exertion and
takes them near to the limits of its ability to survive, I would assume places it in a condition of stress.

Thermal efficiency of any hive relates to not only the insulative properties of the material, but the size of holes/gaps which allow ventiliation. Ventilation and airflow are very important for reducing the water content of honey and regulating temperature throughout the year. It might be that the amount of stress relieved by polystyrene in winter might be offset by the extra stress and overheating that it could cause in summer. I don't know if anyone has done a scientific study of the overall effects of polystyrene, and the climate in which they may be good or bad. Clearly they are probably good in Sweden, and bad in Nigeria, but where the good/bad climate transition point is who knows?

 

[johna]

I've just made the change to polyhives from wood.The reasons - lighter weight , better insulation for the bees ,saving on frames (only 10 to a box instead of 11 or 12) and wax,the queen will fully lay from side to side in a poly box actualy increasing the amount of brood in the box and finaly cost.I've always made all my own hives having previously run a bespoke furniture making business,but due to price increases ,I can't even buy the raw Cedar as cheaply as I can buy a complete poly hive.Our local professional bee farmer has changed completely to poly (over 500 hives) and has seen his business soar.
Murray McC on the Balmoral Estate also runs poly in the thousands of colonies.

 

[oliver90owner]

I haven't tried one yet, but my main worry has been that they might break under the forces sometimes needed to break a propolis seal.

Simple solution here. Try one.

What propolis seal? What is there that might break the correct density material? I can sit or stand on the roof of my polynucs when the nuc is standing on a firm level surface.

Maybe there is not so much propolis needed to seal a poly hive as a timber one? Maybe the propolis is only on the smooth surface and not into the grain of wood?

Maybe we haven't got a clue as to why this problem - were it actually to be one - had not been brought to the attention of potential hive buyers over the last thirty years by the purveyors and disciples of timber hives?

Your second para. (apart from calling it global warming) does make sense; I agree with it wholeheartedly except for the last bit - I think we should be doing all we can to reduce climate change, however small the contribution. I am not convinced that poly for beehives is a negative move. I still prefer wood as I can build from scratch, repair, etc; but the polyhive (only poly nucs, so far) have a lot in their favour.

derekm,

The mention of 360kg of sugar is perhaps a little excessive (may not be, mind), but my 'polynuc' bees got by easily, with a surplus in spring, without any autumn or winter feeding. There again, so did most of the timber-hived colonies, including the one in a nuc box with 6mm thick sidewalls (it did have a 1/2 super above, with 9mm side walls).

I think I may have surplus frames of stores from the brood boxes to extract in the autumn, from both timber and poly hives. I will be replacing any frames, removed for extraction, with poly insulation material, of course!

Welcome to the forum, btw.

Regards, RAB

 

[user 6228]

Thermal efficiency of any hive relates to not only the insulative properties of the material, but the size of holes/gaps which allow ventiliation. Ventilation and airflow are very important for reducing the water content of honey and regulating temperature throughout the year. It might be that the amount of stress relieved by polystyrene in winter might be offset by the extra stress and overheating that it could cause in summer. I don't know if anyone has done a scientific study of the overall effects of polystyrene, and the climate in which they may be good or bad. Clearly they are probably good in Sweden, and bad in Nigeria, but where the good/bad climate transition point is who knows?

A very good point. You also need to consider in summer rhe heat gain through the hive walls. A thin wooden hive in sunlight might have considerable gain.
Ventilation that could be opened in summer might be a desirable feature.
You may also wish to consider for winter the heat losses due to floor and entrance design. Neither the poly or wooden designs commonly found impress me on that point.

 

[user 6228]

Thermal efficiency of any hive relates to not only the insulative properties of the material, but the size of holes/gaps which allow ventiliation. Ventilation and airflow are very important for reducing the water content of honey and regulating temperature throughout the year. It might be that the amount of stress relieved by polystyrene in winter might be offset by the extra stress and overheating that it could cause in summer. I don't know if anyone has done a scientific study of the overall effects of polystyrene, and the climate in which they may be good or bad. Clearly they are probably good in Sweden, and bad in Nigeria, but where the good/bad climate transition point is who knows?

A very good point. You also need to consider in summer rhe heat gain through the hive walls. A thin wooden hive in sunlight might have considerable gain.
Ventilation that could be opened in summer might be a desirable feature.
You may also wish to consider for winter the heat losses due to floor and entrance design. Neither the poly or wooden designs commonly found impress me on that point.

Rab
The 360 is from my lurking here reading that some regularly put 12 kg of fondant in each winter or did I misread it?

 

[oliver90owner]

Clearly they are probably good in Sweden, and bad in Nigeria

Not so. I would agree with probably good in Sweden but unnecessary in Nigeria. I agree with derekm re heat transfer.

RAB

some regularly put 12 kg of fondant in each winter

Some do, some don't, so your figure is the maximum and it should be less than that on average (Some still feed that amount in the autumn, too). My contribution to the statistics would drag that figure down a tiny amount, but there are others like me.

The weather problems encountered last winter were not typical of the previous decade, I think. But I didn't really comprehend why so much fondant was being stacked in hives last winter, in addition to the autumn feeds. I didn't do either and all my colonies survived without too much trouble, apparently. Possibly inappropriate imported strains of bee or something awry with the beekeeping practices/methodology?

A lot was likely single colony beekeepers worrying overly with the weather, after less than optimum autumn preparations. Understandable, maybe, with so many new beeks and the high cost of nuclei of bees.

Regards, RAB

 

[Tom Bick]

more Thermally efficient hives will need less stores. My training in physics and chemistry means I can assert that as fact. Badly designed constructed or badly sited poly hives are not under consideration here.
The 12kg of sugar that some need to give means the bee colony is generating circa 20w to maintain temperature.
Increasing the thermal resistance of the hive means they need to generate less heat.

Placing an organism in more adverse circumstances than would naturally occur which requires high levels of exertion and
takes them near to the limits of its ability to survive, I would assume places it in a condition of stress.

Thanks Derek that’s all very clear now.

I think your training in physics and chemistry will really help you in the years to come lol

 

[user 6228]

Thanks Derek that’s all very clear now.

I think your training in physics and chemistry will really help you in the years to come lol

When I was doing my physics (a long long time ago) my friends doing zoology told me
In the experimental situation the animal does what it !@#$% likes so while I know the bees will obey the laws of thermodynamics, that will be as far as they go lol.

 

[oliver90owner]

The 12kg of sugar that some need to give means the bee colony is generating circa 20w to maintain temperature.

As 12kgs of fondant I just checked your sums - amazing! OK, I came up with 17W, but same ballpark.

That is in addition to any other stores consumed, of course; also for those that stuff a whole block of fondant on, it does not necessarily get totally consumed, so figures are quite variable with a wide range.

It would be interesting to know the actual typical wattage of a cluster for different ambient temperatures. 17W would likely melt a 10l bucket of honey in two or three days!

The pictures posted on here of melted snow on roofs, and below OMFs, demonstrates the large cumulative amounts of energy dissipated by the cluster.

Reducing it by, say 10%, simply cuts one's fuel bill (autumn feed used) by about that figure.

Of course there is certainly a higher rate of honey consumption once the spring expansion is well underway, than since the last autumn brood is capped, so things are complicated. But, as I have said so many times before - a sheet of polystyrene for insulation soon has its cost paid back with fuel savings. Polyhives are simply an extension of this, as I see it.

Regards, RAB

 

[Moggs]

Interesting debate. Having just about reached my capacity for bees in wooden hives, I was tempted to try the poly option, on grounds of cost and portability. The deciding factor would probably be in finding a 14x12 option, though I do have some standard national equipment in wood, so would still be operating two systems. Why is it that the vital piece of kit that you want is the last bit of kit that you have already pressed into service?!

 

[Chris Luck]

I'm thinking of getting a few as well, always good to try something different although the price of a wooden or plastic Dadant is the same here, but always willing to try something different and to overcome my in built aversion to the idea.

Chris

 

[user 6228]

...
It would be interesting to know the actual typical wattage of a cluster for different ambient temperatures. 17W would likely melt a 10l bucket of honey in two or three days!
...
Regards, RAB

Just saw this .

The bees need to maintain an average temperature in the cluster, which if IRRC is about 38C. If you have a hive who's heat losses at 38c are less than 17w then the hive it self warms up rather than just a cluster. So the the target heat loss for a hive is roughly 50C / 20W = 0.4W/C given the surface area of a hive is roughly 1 sq m we are looking for a thermal conductance of 0.4w/c/m2.