Poly hives

[Swarm]

Having seen Honey Bees take up residence in the strangest places, I'm far from convinced they consider much else than space to build comb.

 

[ericbeaumont]

You were doing so well until you quoted Heidi and her mob the 'natural beekeeping trust' a band of money centric wooly headed charlatans who are pretty clueless on bees and beekeeping in general.
Beehives encrusted in Bullsh!t about sums them up.

I thought it would be a bridge too far!
Still, the words ring true.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Having seen Honey Bees take up residence in the strangest places, I'm far from convinced they consider much else than space to build comb.

Three established feral colonies I've known locally -
One in the stonework of an old church , accessed from inside the building which doesn't get much sunlight at any time of day due to the fact it is surrounded by ancient woodland with plenty of hollow trees.
One in a cavity behind a gravestone in the West facing wall of an old chapel, completely shaded by an ancient yew, not fifty yards from an old, hollow oak tree, bordering an expanse of old woodland.
One twelve feet up in a hollow oak tree so hollow I can get head and shoulders in to the open cavity at ground level and observe the bees on the comb up above, and the sunlight shining down from the topmost entrance hole. Only ten yards from one of my apiaries which looks down on to the valley and acres of mature woodland.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don’t care that he does but he refuses to have his six children vaccinated. Some beliefs cause harm.

well, at least there's a chance a few will survive to adulthood

 

[ericbeaumont]

Some of them are probably well intentioned if a bit wacky to our minds. They become suspect when they profess to be right while everyone else is wrong...Some beliefs cause harm

Too true. Beekeeping should be a broad church which embraces all, but as with most churches, prefers to argue and divide. Pity.

At our BKA we don't care why or in what people keep bees, so long as they consider and learn how to keep them well. That in itself is an uphill struggle, so the issue of Flow Hives, tea chests or hollow trees is secondary.

There is a local beekeeper who keeps bees in a section of hollow oak with a glass observation window; he's one of the soundest and most aware beekeepers I've come across.

 

[Lancs Lad]

Too true. Beekeeping should be a broad church which embraces all, but as with most churches, prefers to argue and divide. Pity.

At our BKA we don't care why or in what people keep bees, so long as they consider and learn how to keep them well. That in itself is an uphill struggle, so the issue of Flow Hives, tea chests or hollow trees is secondary.

There is a local beekeeper who keeps bees in a section of hollow oak with a glass observation window; he's one of the soundest and most aware beekeepers I've come across.

It's good to see a BKA moving in the right direction and embracing the varied aspects of beekeeping,

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Beekeeping should be a broad church .

But most churches, however liberal seem to toe the line at devil worship

 

[bingevader]

They become suspect when they profess to be right while everyone else is wrong

There're a few on here guilty of that.

 

[Ian123]

Am sure I saw a guy claiming bees in trees select a cavity with 4” of wood surround? Is that correct or my imagination.

 

[Erichalfbee]

There're a few on here guilty of that.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Am sure I saw a guy claiming bees in trees select a cavity with 4” of wood surround? Is that correct or my imagination.

Of course the question should be asked - did they select the cavity because the walls had 4" or more of wood
or
Was it just chance that the cavity selected (for whatever reason) happened to have walls of 4" of wood?

 

[ericbeaumont]

Four inches sounds pretty thermally efficient. Curiously, Seeley does not mention the width of nest walls (Honeybee Democracy, starting at about page 50) but then a young tree with a thin-walled trunk would unlikely to have at the same time a hollow trunk or a broken branch (giving a hole for a nest entrance), and older trees with thicker walls and holes would likely be the only option.

There's also Randall Hepburn's Honeybee Nests: Composition, Structure, Function. Even the cheapest on Abebooks is £118 from the US, and print-on-demand. Anyone read it?

Derek Mitchell is pretty conclusive on thermal efficiency:
The desiccation of nectar to produce honey by honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) is an energy intensive process, as it involves a quasi-isothermal change in the concentration of sugars from typically 20% to 80% by vaporisation (honey ripening).

This analysis creates mathematical models for: the collected nectar to honey ratio; energy recovery ratio; honey energy margin; and the break-even distance, which includes the factors of nectar concentration and the distance to the nectar from the nest; energetics of desiccation; and a new factor, thermal energy efficiency of nectar desiccation (TEE).

These models show a significant proportion of delivered energy in the nectar must be used in desiccation and that there is a strong connection between TEE and nest lumped thermal conductance with colony behaviour. They show the connection between TEE and honey bee colony success, or failure, in the rate of return, in terms of distance or quality of foraging.

Consequently TEE is a key parameter in honey bee population and foraging modelling. For bee-keeping it quantifies the summer benefits of a key hive design parameter, hive thermal conductance and gives a sound theoretical basis for improving honey yields, as seen in expanded polystyrene hives.

Derek on humidity:
This theoretical thermofluid analysis investigates the relationships between: honey production rate, nectar concentration, and the parameters of: entrance size, nest thermal conductance, brood nest humidity and the temperatures needed for nectar to honey conversion. It quantifies and shows that nest humidity is positively related to the amount, and water content of the nectar being desiccated into honey and negatively with respect to nest thermal conductance and entrance size. It is highly likely that honey bees, in temperate climates and in their natural home, with much smaller thermal conductance and entrance, can achieve higher humidities more easily and more frequently than in man-made hives.


The regular mention of thermal efficiency ought to influence us more than it does currently, and certainly ought to stop beekeepers putting bees in tea-chests.

 

[Ian123]

I don’t think it’s even as complicated as that by the time a tree gets to a size to contain a cavity in the tens of litres it’s substantial. To then think of the many tons of timber water and leaves that are sitting above it blowing in the wind anything less is liable to snap like a matchstick. Some just look for an answer they want or like the sound of. I’ve pulled more bees from flat roofs than trees, 18 mm sterling board or ply, similar to a hive wall in fact. Maybe hives are more natural!!! Also pulled about a dozen colonies in a day from old oil drums 3mm steel in 35c plus temps in the sun. Guess that’s to thermal efficient.

 

[pargyle]

You were doing so well until you quoted Heidi and her mob the 'natural beekeeping trust' a band of money centric wooly headed charlatans who are pretty clueless on bees and beekeeping in general.
Beehives encrusted in Bullsh!t about sums them up.

That's a little unfair .. They are a chariity and their accounts do not reflect a huge income. There are some very good beekeepers associated with them - they are not all tree hugging tofu eating sandal wearing loons ... John Haverson, David Heaf and even Heidi know their way around bees and are good beekeepers in their own right.

The Sun hive may be a bit off the wall for most beekeepers (and I certainly would not want one) but as a desirable bee's hive it's actually the same shape as bees build comb in the wild, it's warm, can be inspected and if your needs are just a few jars of honey a year you can easily harvest a small crop from it.

Heidi is not a let alone beekeeper .. she does let her bees swarm but she catches and re-hives them .. in a variety of hives including some conventional ones.

I can't agree with everything they state in their website but beekeeping is a broad church and not everyone is in it for a huge honey crop. There's room for everyone as long as they care for their bees ..

There are bigots and extremeists wherever you look in whatever discipline you follow .. but usually the vast majority are somewhere in the middle of the road.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I’ve pulled more bees from flat roofs than trees, 18mm sterling board or ply, similar to a hive wall in fact. Maybe hives are more natural!!! Also pulled about a dozen colonies in a day from old oil drums 3mm steel in 35c plus temps in the sun. Guess that’s to thermal efficient.

Yes, Ian, they do like a flat roof (and beekeepers get asked to remove more from those than trees) but underneath that (insulated) roof is a centrally-heated building, and although an oil drum may do the job in high summer, it would likely have been a different story of survival in winter.

Seeley was clear (page 100) on site selection: it's a balance between many variables: the energy available to spend assessing sites, the time available to do it, the bees able to do it, and so on. He likened it to choosing a flat when moving to a new area: in the end a decision must be made, perhaps not the ideal. Maybe those are the ones we deal with.

 

[SDM]

and although an oil drum may do the job in high summer, it would likely have been a different story of survival in winter.

I know one in a 300l steel box , with two entrances 15ft up on a windy Welsh hill. They've survived the last 2 winters(there's been a colony in it at least 5years but whether that's continuous or not I can't say) for sure including the beast from the east.

 

[Ian123]

Anyone considered the advantage to bees of thermally inefficient hives?

 

[Walrus]

I’ve met many very successful beekeepers. They have low losses, high yields, keep hundreds or thousands of hives, and have been making a living from their bees for decades. Their hives are different sizes and made from different materials. Presumably the bees would abscond or die if conditions were too bad, but these bees are thriving. Even on our small island there is a wide variety of hive types being used successfully. If there was such a thing as one hive type which was superior to all the rest then eventually it would dominate. The current dominant hive in the world is Langstroth (wood) and in the UK is National (wood).

I think too much can be made of a beekeepers equipment. The thing that really counts is the years of experience and the painful lessons along the way. It’s easier to change your equipment than to become a great beekeeper. The great beekeepers that I know have worked out what’s right for them, but given the variety of boxes being used it’s hard to accept that hive type is as critical a variable as many people think it is.

 

[Finman]

I’ve met many very successful beekeepers. They have low losses, high yields, keep hundreds or thousands of hives, and have been making a living from their bees for decades. Their hives are different sizes and made from different materials. Presumably the bees would abscond or die if conditions were too bad, but these bees are thriving. Even on our small island there is a wide variety of hive types being used successfully. If there was such a thing as one hive type which was superior to all the rest then eventually it would dominate. The current dominant hive in the world is Langstroth (wood) and in the UK is National (wood).

I think too much can be made of a beekeepers equipment. The thing that really counts is the years of experience and the painful lessons along the way. It’s easier to change your equipment than to become a great beekeeper. The great beekeepers that I know have worked out what’s right for them, but given the variety of boxes being used it’s hard to accept that hive type is as critical a variable as many people think it is.

The reason to succes is, that bees stand many kinds of beekeepers and beehives.

Tree trunks they do not stand, because no one can save them from varroa.

Tree trunk are false benchmark to bees' happines. It is a cemetry of a Swarm.

If you do not believe on polyhives, just buy some brood boxes and compare how they work on side of wooden boxes. So I did 30 years ago. ...or do not burden you mind with them.
And this issue has been discussed tens of Times during last 10 years in this forum.

 

[For want of a better word]

The reason to succes is, that bees stand many kinds of beekeepers and beehives.

Tree trunks they do not stand, because no one can save them from varroa.

Tree trunk are false benchmark to bees' happines. It is a cemetry of a Swarm.

If you do not believe on polyhives, just buy some brood boxes and compare how they work on side of wooden boxes. So I did 30 years ago. ...or do not burden you mind with them.
And this issue has been discussed tens of Times during last 10 years in this forum.

So in Finnland the wooden hives outperform the plastic contraptions?