Poly Hive - which to buy?

[oliver90owner]

Every so often they knock one out in a genuine auction and they seem to go for high £20s to low £30s.

I just get the feeling that these auctioned ones have other faults, too.

The boxes need about 5-7mm machining off the bottom and a 3mm sheet fixing on each side at the frame ends. No big deal, just hassle and cost of suitable sheet material plus fixings. Bottom bee space to top would be more hassle, if it could be done.

I think I would give them a miss, as 14 x12 conversion would make them an even less attractive purchase.

Regards, RAB

Edit - and shipping is twenty quid, too!

 

[JamezF]

My Paynes brood boxes and nucs arrived today. I've not really had to time look at them in detail yet, but first impressions are good. I'd say they're better than they look in the photos I've seen.

From the point of view of retaining compatibility with my existing wooden kit the only obvious downside is that the roof from a wooden national won't fit. Quite possibly that's a problem I don't have to solve until near the end of the season though.

James

 

[Stephenw]

Just wondering does he national poly hive have bee space under were the lugs of the frames would be? is this necessary?


Steve

 

[JamezF]

I assume that space isn't necessary as I've seen old wooden hives that don't have it. My recollection of the Payne's nucs when I was unpacking them today is that they don't have runners and that the frame lugs rest flat on the poly. It may make things more convenient to have runners or castellations however.

In the case of the Payne's brood chambers, they come with a slot so it's possible to fit castellations, or runners to make a bottom bee space box. It may be possible that leaving them out gives you a top bee space box, but as there's a recess in the bottom of each box where it would overlap the lugs on the box below I'm really not sure.

James

 

[Into the lions den]

Just had confirmation from Wynne Jones that their poly hives are bottom bee space, apologies for any confusion.

Of course they are....but you are talking about the boxes.........I am part owner of the mould after all so I do know. The mould is multi purpose and makes National Deeps and shallows with bottom bee space, designed with the same perimeter as a wooden version so the gear all matches, and also Smith deeps and shallows with top bee space, where the dimensions are then as per the National rather than the Smith, so wooden gear does not fully match.

The feeder is a borrowed mould from a Swedish national, which has precisely the same outside dimensions as a British national. Its is supplied as the feeder for both the National and Smith versions. The feeder itself is flush based so perfect for use on a top bee space hive. Needs a spacer or precise placement and top bar cleaning on a bottom bee space national.

This is not an offer to sell them btw. Wynne Jones have that job via Swienty.

These were the first real attempt at a compatible unit for National hives, and as the market was highly uncertain and generally sceptical it was all done using compromises to allow people to do rolling changeovers. None of the versions from the plethora of makers is perfect, all have their issues of compatibility with existing patterns, or the makers little 'improvements' that often render 'mix and match' or 'competitive sourcing' problematic. All, as free standing hives, using the gear only from the one maker, are very good hives superior to wood, bar a tiny number some time ago made with material far too soft.

The Smith version is a spanking good hive with zero issues as it stands using the gear. The National one is indeed a compromise situation deliberately designed so your existing wooden gear and this stuff all fit together. The long lugs and the bottom bee space do make it a little more complicated to get right as roofs feeders etc would need to be made with the bases recessed to give the appropriate bee space.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

From the point of view of retaining compatibility with my existing wooden kit the only obvious downside is that the roof from a wooden national won't fit. Quite possibly that's a problem I don't have to solve until near the end of the season though.

James

I guess you could always put a super or an eke on top if you wanted to retain a wooden roof

 

[alanf]

I am part owner of the mould after all so I do know. The mould is multi purpose and makes National Deeps and shallows with bottom bee space, designed with the same perimeter as a wooden version so the gear all matches...

The feeder is a borrowed mould from a Swedish national, which has precisely the same outside dimensions as a British national...

ITLD, perhaps you could clarify, I'm having trouble picturing the actual dimensions, is the 'same perimeter' on the inside or the outside of the box wall?

Taking the metric dimensions of a a national (Dave Cushman's diagrams) the external measurements are 460x460mm. using 18mm timber and 25mm rails, the internal dimensions would be 424x374mm (ignoring the rebates for frame lugs). Wynne Jones lists the Swienty poly boxes as 45mm walled, and the photos do show thick walls. The internal dimensions would have to be the same as the wooden national to take the same frame arrangement. If the walls are uniformly 45mm, the external dimensions would be 514x464mm.

No reason why a box that size could not stack with wooden ones, it just leaves steps on the outside profile. It would mean that, like the Paynes version, a wooden national lid won't fit directly on top of a poly brood or super; you always need a wooden box at the top of the stack if you want to use a wooden lid.

Similarly, a poly lid is going to leave a large rim on a wooden box that probably needs a weight or strap to avoid blowing off. If the feeder has the 'same outside dimensions as a British national' that would be smaller than the other boxes and the same rim is going to appear if the feeder is at the top of the stack.

Is that how it works or have I got it completely wrong? Perhaps I need to go to Wales with a tape measure.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

ITLD, perhaps you could clarify, I'm having trouble picturing the actual dimensions, is the 'same perimeter' on the inside or the outside of the box wall?

Taking the metric dimensions of a a national (Dave Cushman's diagrams) the external measurements are 460x460mm. using 18mm timber and 25mm rails, the internal dimensions would be 424x374mm (ignoring the rebates for lugs). Wynne Jones lists the Swienty poly boxes as 45mm walled, and the photos do look to have thick walls. The internal dimensions would have to be the same as the wooden national to take the same frame arrangement. If the walls are uniformly 45mm, the external dimensions would be 464x514.

No reason why a box that size could not stack with wooden ones, it just leaves steps on the outside profile. It would mean that, like the Paynes version, a wooden national lid won't fit directly on top of a poly brood or super; you always need a wooden box at the top of the stack if you want to use a wooden lid.

Similarly, a poly lid is going to leave a large rim on a wooden box that probably needs a weight or strap to avoid blowing off. If the feeder has the 'same outside dimensions as a British national' that would be smaller than the other boxes and the same rim is going to appear if the feeder is at the top of the stack.

Is that how it works or have I got it completely wrong? Perhaps I need to go to Wales with a tape measure.

Without wishing to pre-empt the answer from ITLD or someone else who actually knows, my guess would be that these are sized like the MBs - the same external measurements but taking one less frame inside.

My reasoning being that we know the feeder is the same external dimension and therefore the rest are likely to be, plus the fact that ITLD mentions that all wooden components fit together with it.

Actually having just re-read his post he also says that they are designed with the same perimeter as a wooden version

 

[fiftyjon]

I have purchased the Swienty national poly's from C. Wynne Jones for compatibility reasons of using my wooden national kit and for other cosmetic reasons. I received recommendations (for Swienty) from others on here and compared to physically looking at the complete National offering from Paynes and Swienty, I preferred the Swienty boxes. I have purchased from Paynes their nuc offering which looks very acceptable. The Swienty national boxes only holds ten frames though the Paynes nationals will hold twelve, which makes their footprint larger than the 460mm x 460mm. As my colonies are generally run on double brood the loss of brood frame should not cause me too much difficulty.

 

[alanf]

I have purchased the Swienty national poly's from C. Wynne Jones for compatibility reasons of using my wooden national kit and for other cosmetic reasons. I received recommendations (for Swienty) from others on here and compared to physically looking at the complete National offering from Paynes and Swienty, I preferred the Swienty boxes. I have purchased from Paynes their nuc offering which looks very acceptable. The Swienty national boxes only holds ten frames though the Paynes nationals will hold twelve, which makes their footprint larger than the 460mm x 460mm. As my colonies are generally run on double brood the loss of brood frame should not cause me too much difficulty.

Thanks, that's very useful. Internally they must be near 374x374 to leave a square external. Adding a Swienty brood or two seems like a versatile way of migrating without replacing everything in one if double brooding is your choice.

 

[fiftyjon]

Thanks, that's very useful. Internally they must be near 374x374 to leave a square external. Adding a Swienty brood or two seems like a versatile way of migrating without replacing everything in one if double brooding is your choice.

I will use a poly roof though with the brood boxes for over wintering, instead of my wooden roofs.

 

[Into the lions den]

ITLD, perhaps you could clarify, I'm having trouble picturing the actual dimensions, is the 'same perimeter' on the inside or the outside of the box wall?
.

OK............the perimeter............outside dimension.....is identical to a standard wooden National hive. The front and back walls, where the frames rest, are the same thickness as the overall thi8ckness of the wooden ones, so the internal size remains perfect for BS long lugged frames. The side walls are increased in thickness to give the insulation.

As I said, its all about compromises, and the end result of this is that these boxes take one frame less than their direct wooden equivalent. The insulation is a crucial part of the benefits of poly hives. Allowing for this, yet maintaining a standard perimeter size, so you can use your existing wooden hive equipment...exluders.......crown boards........clearer boards.......hive top feeders..even floors and roofs.....was considered important so that people could buy what they wanted and convert over a protracted period or just remain mix and match.

Only absolute no no is to have a poly brood box in winter with uninsulated wooden parts overhead.

If starting from scratch then any makers poly hive will suffice, and in any common pattern, as all are better for the bees than wooden.

 

[alanf]

Thanks. See the points about an insulated roof of some sort, you don't want the coldest surface above. It does look like Swienty/yourself, Payne's, and MB with the lips have all taken different compromises. Not that you are not entitled to set your own priorities, but it's not that obvious from the supplier web sites what those compromises are if they don't quote actual dimensions.

It's a lot clearer now, although I'd still be wary of ordering many items without seeing them first. What I will say is that if I went for poly round here, I get the impression I'd be pretty much a pioneer, unless some are just keeping it quiet.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

loads trying poly up here, even 'woodie' old timers! Most just trying atm but all have good things to say.

 

[drstitson]

"although I'd still be wary of ordering many items without seeing them first"

a good reason to head to stoneleigh (or whatever we're calling it now) in april for a gander at the various offers (that's what PH did with the MB one last year).

 

[Meg]

The ones I have got have 'DENROSA' on the side. Who sells these now?

Thanks all.

Meg

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

The ones I have got have 'DENROSA' on the side. Who sells these now?

Thanks all.

Meg

I think you may need to PM user Into The Lions Den

 

[RoofTops]

C Wynne Jones sell them - although it is a bit of a struggle to find them on their website. Might be better to give them a call and check they have stock.

 

[Meg]

Thanks,

Yes, I have PM's ITTLD, but I no reply yet. I will catch him at some point in the next month or so no doubt!

Meg

 

[wilderness]

My decision

As I opened this poll I thought I ought to enlighten you as to which poly hive I bought.

It was P*y**s or ******* as it now appears in the poll.

Looks very good. Let's see what the bees make of it this season.

Thanks for all your comments.