Pineboard/lamwood hives

[Katherine]

I also wondered about adding a polystyrene wrap around in winter...

 

[Murox]

Thats massive. Where are you and how hot/cold do you get?
I'm in Northern France where temperatures used to get down around -10, but haven't in recent years. Occasional-6 becoming the new normal. Summers quite hot, upper 30s.
I did think of going thicker but not that thick!
No I dont make my own frames. I can get them from Spain quite cheaply and my workshop is not yet up to it, though eventually I hope it will be.
How did your ply sandwich work out long term?

I realised you were in france and it was insulation from heat extremes I was thinking about. yes its massive but I guess you are not going to practice transhumance; if you do plan to them yes a lighter build would be handy. My larch - tyvek - insulation - ply sandwich is now three years old and doing well it has a hinged gable roof. It is intentionally heavy, stands up to serious gale force winds where I am on west coast of Scotland.
Forgot to ask - what extractor do you use for layens sized frames ?

 

[understanding_bees]

Anyone build their hives out of pineboard/lamwood? Any thoughts, seems to be more popular in Eastern Europe but not mentioned on here

I would like to offer some advice. Some might say is is only my opinion, but I would say it is my advice.
There have been so many examples, in this forum, of people having widely divergent opinions. I find it regrettable that sometimes people express strong opinions which are based on conjecture rather than on facts.
The comments which I have offered have been based on substantial facts, and on a lifetime of experience.
I mention the following, not to seek praise, but rather to provide proof of my experience and expertise; I was frequently top of my class in woodwork when I was in high school many years ago, and have built up a fairly well equipped workshop as I have undertaken many projects.
I have seen, and know well, the kind of deterioration which can occur in wooden items which are exposed to the weather. There are all sorts of climate extremes which may be experienced in different parts of the world, and probably none of us has experienced them all. Your weather extremes may be quite different to mine. Having said all of that, the kind of protection which is given to timber may vary. Paint can provide excellent protection, provided that the painted surface does not become damaged. Paint cannot provide protection against water damage if a timber joint has movement in it which causes the paint surface to crack, thereby allowing water ingress. One of the often overlooked problems with cracks and splits like this is that capillary action will draw water deeply into a very fine crack, to a greater extent than happens with wider cracks.
The question was raised about lamwood for hive box construction. The same question could also apply with regard to plywood. The kinds of adhesives which are used for constructing these composite boards are very strong, and they are claimed to be water resistant as well. But there is a difference between water-resistant and water-proof.
Wood has strength and durability when it is kept dry, or perhaps I should say when water is not able to penetrate it. This is the underlying reason why so many beekeepers, in various countries, have adopted the approach of using paraffin wax dipping to preserve their equipment. When wood is properly "deep fried" in paraffin wax all moisture is displaced from it, and the wood is saturated with wax. Treated this way, the wood becomes water-proof. Water cannot penetrate, the wood will not rot, and the glues are not subjected to the deterioration that is caused to them by water. In this situation, wax-dipped plywood does not de-laminate like untreated plywood, and the same should apply to lamwood-composite boards.
I wrote recently in another discussion thread on this forum, about paraffin wax dipping. Many different thoughts / objections were expressed by others. It is certainly true that paraffin wax dipping could pose hazardous fire danger if it was performed carelessly. On the other hand, if sensible care is taken, it is not dangerous, and it provides a very time-efficient way of weather-proofing hive boxes. Another significant benefit of hot-wax-dipping is that it can provide a very effective way of disinfecting boxes which have housed diseased bees. It is even possible, by this method, to disinfect boxes where AFB has been present.

 

[Murox]

I also wondered about adding a polystyrene wrap around in winter...

Aim to make the hive a stable climate rather than add stuff on.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would like to offer some advice. Some might say is is only my opinion, but I would say it is my advice.
There have been so many examples, in this forum, of people having widely divergent opinions. I find it regrettable that sometimes people express strong opinions which are based on conjecture rather than on facts.
The comments which I have offered have been based on substantial facts, and on a lifetime of experience.
I mention the following, not to seek praise, but rather to provide proof of my experience and expertise; I was frequently top of my class in woodwork when I was in high school many years ago, and have built up a fairly well equipped workshop as I have undertaken many projects.
I have seen, and know well, the kind of deterioration which can occur in wooden items which are exposed to the weather. There are all sorts of climate extremes which may be experienced in different parts of the world, and probably none of us has experienced them all. Your weather extremes may be quite different to mine. Having said all of that, the kind of protection which is given to timber may vary. Paint can provide excellent protection, provided that the painted surface does not become damaged. Paint cannot provide protection against water damage if a timber joint has movement in it which causes the paint surface to crack, thereby allowing water ingress. One of the often overlooked problems with cracks and splits like this is that capillary action will draw water deeply into a very fine crack, to a greater extent than happens with wider cracks.
The question was raised about lamwood for hive box construction. The same question could also apply with regard to plywood. The kinds of adhesives which are used for constructing these composite boards are very strong, and they are claimed to be water resistant as well. But there is a difference between water-resistant and water-proof.
Wood has strength and durability when it is kept dry, or perhaps I should say when water is not able to penetrate it. This is the underlying reason why so many beekeepers, in various countries, have adopted the approach of using paraffin wax dipping to preserve their equipment. When wood is properly "deep fried" in paraffin wax all moisture is displaced from it, and the wood is saturated with wax. Treated this way, the wood becomes water-proof. Water cannot penetrate, the wood will not rot, and the glues are not subjected to the deterioration that is caused to them by water. In this situation, wax-dipped plywood does not de-laminate like untreated plywood, and the same should apply to lamwood-composite boards.
I wrote recently in another discussion thread on this forum, about paraffin wax dipping. Many different thoughts / objections were expressed by others. It is certainly true that paraffin wax dipping could pose hazardous fire danger if it was performed carelessly. On the other hand, if sensible care is taken, it is not dangerous, and it provides a very time-efficient way of weather-proofing hive boxes. Another significant benefit of hot-wax-dipping is that it can provide a very effective way of disinfecting boxes which have housed diseased bees. It is even possible, by this method, to disinfect boxes where AFB has been present.

Murray (ITLD on the forum)
Is dipping his but he is a large scale bee farmer and I think he might be using beeswax

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Murray (ITLD on the forum)
Is dipping his but he is a large scale bee farmer and I think he might be using beeswax

He's using paraffin wax I believe. And large scale is relatively 'easy' - he has invested in equipment and dipping tanks so everything can be done safely and efficiently.
It's not just a matter of cranking up a fire in your back garden and heating up a bucket of wax on top. Not really something with a couple of hives should contemplate
The whole dipping story can be found on his facebook feed
I would take advice from someone like him who has been there done it, after much research and trial (after all, he has been keeping bees since a nipper)

 

[Erichalfbee]

He's using paraffin wax I believe. And large scale is relatively 'easy' - he has invested in equipment and dipping tanks so everything can be done safely and efficiently.
It's not just a matter of cranking up a fire in your back garden and heating up a bucket of wax on top. Not really something with a couple of hives should contemplate
The whole dipping story can be found on his facebook feed
I would take advice from someone like him who has been there done it, after much research and trial (after all, he has been keeping bees since a nipper)

Ah I stand corrected. With beeswax being such a valuable commodity it was a silly notion
I should imagine they need treating regularly considering where the bees live

 

[understanding_bees]

It's not just a matter of cranking up a fire in your back garden and heating up a bucket of wax on top. Not really something with a couple of hives should contemplate

I agree entirely. Anybody who decides to crank up a fire in the back garden to heat a bucket of wax is setting out on a very dangerous path.
Anybody who decides to do paraffin wax dipping of hive boxes needs to thoroughly research the process, and use equipment which is designed for that purpose. The cost of this exercise cannot be justified for just a couple of hive boxes. I have "been there, done that" - I have done the research, I have used equipment designed for the purpose, I have done many more than "a couple of hives".

 

[Erichalfbee]

I agree entirely. Anybody who decides to crank up a fire in the back garden to heat a bucket of wax is setting out on a very dangerous path.
Anybody who decides to do paraffin wax dipping of hive boxes needs to thoroughly research the process, and use equipment which is designed for that purpose. The cost of this exercise cannot be justified for just a couple of hive boxes. I have "been there, done that" - I have done the research, I have used equipment designed for the purpose, I have done many more than "a couple of hives".

I think the warning was there for other beekeepers thinking of doing the same.
Do you dip hives for other beekeepers?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It is even possible, by this method, to disinfect boxes where AFB has been present.

Possible but the boxes have to remain dipped for ten minutes and with a maintained temperature of at least 160 degrees Celsius.
Paraffin wax has a'flashpoint' of around 200 degrees so there is a very narrow margin of error and bodging up something is fraught with danger, even if no naked flames are involved.
When hot wax 'flashes' it does without warning, and not always with smoke, just an explosion with flaming wax going everywhere. I've witnessed it at fireschool in a controlled demonstration using oil, but wax - just think Napalm.

 

[Antipodes]

If anyone else on the forum has had experience with wax dipping boxes, now would be a good time to comment.

As in the cult movie....Anyone? Anyone?

 

[Erichalfbee]

If anyone else on the forum has had experience with wax dipping boxes, now would be a good time to comment.

As in the cult movie....Anyone? Anyone?

 

[Katherine]

I realised you were in france and it was insulation from heat extremes I was thinking about. yes its massive but I guess you are not going to practice transhumance; if you do plan to them yes a lighter build would be handy. My larch - tyvek - insulation - ply sandwich is now three years old and doing well it has a hinged gable roof. It is intentionally heavy, stands up to serious gale force winds where I am on west coast of Scotland.
Forgot to ask - what extractor do you use for layens sized frames ?

I'll go with your advice as they will be static hives.
I'll get back to you about the extractor. I'm intending toborrow a friend's who bought what looks like a professional extractor and able to take various frame sizes.
I dont think I get the gales you do. Where on the west coast are you?

 

[Murox]

I'll go with your advice as they will be static hives.
I'll get back to you about the extractor. I'm intending toborrow a friend's who bought what looks like a professional extractor and able to take various frame sizes.
I dont think I get the gales you do. Where on the west coast are you?

Extractors - yes they are expensive, I was half hoping you were going to say you had a spanish contact/source of reasonably priced ones.
Are you aware of Dr. Leo Sharashkin's work with Layens hives ?

I'm down on the Kintyre peninsular, near Campbeltown. We get the full force of SSW -> NNW gales when they happen. Rain only comes horizontal hear

 

[Katherine]

Extractors - yes they are expensive, I was half hoping you were going to say you had a spanish contact/source of reasonably priced ones.
Are you aware of Dr. Leo Sharashkin's work with Layens hives ?

I'm down on the Kintyre peninsular, near Campbeltown. We get the full force of SSW -> NNW gales when they happen. Rain only comes horizontal hear

Lovely part of Scotland.
Yes I'm aware of Dr Leo, as they seem to call him and of Lazutin. I read the original work of Layens, in French, but it's pre Veroa and could do with updating. I guess the next step is Spanish. There must be books as it is reportedly the most commonly used hive there. Ironically nothing more in French and Dadant is the most commonly used hive here, so no help locally.
I have used a supplier in Spain
Colmenas layens the cheapest extractor is just over 200 euros, but for you, the p&p would probably be ridiculous.

 

[Murox]

Lovely part of Scotland.
Yes I'm aware of Dr Leo, as they seem to call him and of Lazutin. I read the original work of Layens, in French, but it's pre Veroa and could do with updating. I guess the next step is Spanish. There must be books as it is reportedly the most commonly used hive there. Ironically nothing more in French and Dadant is the most commonly used hive here, so no help locally.
I have used a supplier in Spain
Colmenas layens the cheapest extractor is just over 200 euros, but for you, the p&p would probably be ridiculous.

As far as books go you have probably already got/found the best sources of "layens information" and operation of the hive. Certainly the spanish must have something but my guess would be that it's founded in the original works of Layens. Lazutin's book is a great read and full of 'little nuggets of gold'. I have found, I may be lucky of course, that varroa can be kept in check using oxalic acid sublimation at the right times. I operate "foundationless" and currently extract by crush and strain - such a huge waste of comb though really - hence my question about extractors. However in terms of scale it remains the most sensible economic solution. I'll look into that link, thank you.

 

[understanding_bees]

I operate "foundationless" and currently extract by crush and strain

I wonder how many people may prefer "honey in the comb"? Apparently some people regard it as a boutique product, and as far as I have come to know it commands a higher price than extracted honey. Honey comb built by the bees on foundationless frames would seem to be the ideal product to offer for sale. Your comments please.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I wonder how many people may prefer "honey in the comb"? Apparently some people regard it as a boutique product, and as far as I have come to know it commands a higher price than extracted honey. Honey comb built by the bees on foundationless frames would seem to be the ideal product to offer for sale. Your comments please.

Maybe start a new thread on the subject? although there are a few already if you search for them

 

[Boston Bees]

Lazutin's book is a great read and full of 'little nuggets of gold'.

It is a great read, and it does indeed contain many useful nuggets.

But in it, Lazutin also asserts that varroa should not be eradicated because they are clearly part of the plan of a "Universal Intelligence"

As to why bees don’t eliminate mites completely, Lazutin speculates that this may be because bees intuitively know that varroa mites have a role to play in culling weak colonies.

So there are some nuggets of pure sh*te in there aswell (he would view your OA sublimation with absolute horror)

Overall though, definitely worth a read. Not sure the super-deep frames have much relevance in the UK's climate though, certainly not for colonies in poly hives.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I wonder how many people may prefer "honey in the comb"? Apparently some people regard it as a boutique product, and as far as I have come to know it commands a higher price than extracted honey. Honey comb built by the bees on foundationless frames would seem to be the ideal product to offer for sale. Your comments please.

I think that is a very interesting subject and one very close to a lot beekeepers' hearts. Start a new thread and you should get feast of replies