Pursuit of AMM Black Bees

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the last was a quote from a person who is prejudiced against bringing in any queen regardless of genetics, and whose methods of addressing defensive bees is akin to the sledgehammer approach.
 
It surely depends.
If it was as clear cut as that then second and third generation colonies from bought in queens might be expected to be hot. After all they are mating with the local stock. I have never found that.

I’m sure it not clear cut. Probably depends on the extent to which your buy in’s are F1’s too.
 
Perhaps - my point was that the buying in of queens may do as much to promote aggressive local bees as not culling aggressive colonies.

It perhaps better explains this than a suggestion the problems is inherent to local bees too.
I'm not sure heterosis is the correct term here.

Heterosis, or hybrid vigour, is where a trait in the offspring is greater than the average of the two parents. This is usually used in the context of those parents already being above average in that trait.

So for example, having a very docile buckfast and a very docile local strain, heterosis would be having offspring which are more docile than the average of the two parent strains.

Obviously for bees this is vastly more complex as there can be around 20 contributors as 'parents' not two, although each individual worker only gets the genes from two individuals.

On the flip side, if we're talking about heterosis leading to increased defensiveness relative to parent genetics, this would be in the context of already defensive colonies having offspring which are queens to colonies which are more defensive than the average of parental contributions.

In the case of buckfasts crossing with local bees, we're talking about Buckfasts which are meant to be docile being crossed with local bees, which may or may not be, and getting offspring which are less docile/more aggressive, so heterosis would be the wrong word- this scenario would be considered to be more of a regression as the traits are going to to opposite end of the spectrum of what the parents are supposed to be exhibiting.
 
I’d also say that given that hybrid vigor from f1 stock is a well recognised biological principle the burden of proof probably lies with those that deny it.
This is nonsense, if the defensive trait(s) (data) is not available and of the correct type it won't cause offspring to suddenly become killer bees.
You can test this with SDI using whatever cross you like, try it.

I've seen a lot of posts on here around defensive bees, i'd bet 99% of the time it's poor handling and or external forces at play. At the York Bio lab last year we were told to avoid a certain hive, I asked to take a look (no smoke) and guess what, they were utterly fine. You're very gentle with the bees/frames they said, yeah no sh&t.
 
This is nonsense, if the defensive trait(s) (data) is not available and of the correct type it won't cause offspring to suddenly become killer bees.
You can test this with SDI using whatever cross you like, try it.

I've seen a lot of posts on here around defensive bees, i'd bet 99% of the time it's poor handling and or external forces at play. At the York Bio lab last year we were told to avoid a certain hive, I asked to take a look (no smoke) and guess what, they were utterly fine. You're very gentle with the bees/frames they said, yeah no sh&t.
I had the same comment when I used to take beginners at the association apiary. Also had people complaining about runny bees after they just pumped thick smoke throughout the hive, poor things were running around in panic.
 
I've seen a lot of posts on here around defensive bees, i'd bet 99% of the time it's poor handling and or external forces at play. At the York Bio lab last year we were told to avoid a certain hive, I asked to take a look (no smoke) and guess what, they were utterly fine. You're very gentle with the bees/frames they said, yeah no sh&t.
:iagree: it's the same out in Africa - most people have been taught by 'master' beekeepers flying over from here playing the great white hope, terrified of the fairytales about 'aggressive' African bees they teach everyone to envelop the hives in great gouts of smoke before going anywhere near the bees, yet I found out that even a small puff of smoke would get the bees quickly trying to get away from it, smoke just would the poor bugger up. I only lit the smoker out of habit and I seldom use it over there, even inspecting without gloves.
My first visit to Tanzania doing a scoping exercise for WWF had one village elder quickly telling the regional manager how impressed they were when I walked up to within a few feet of one hive, sans beesuit, to take a few photographs, for goodness sake, I'd seen feistier bees in apiaries of top quality Buckfasts over here!
 
This is nonsense, if the defensive trait(s) (data) is not available and of the correct type it won't cause offspring to suddenly become killer bees.
You can test this with SDI using whatever cross you like, try it.

I've seen a lot of posts on here around defensive bees, i'd bet 99% of the time it's poor handling and or external forces at play. At the York Bio lab last year we were told to avoid a certain hive, I asked to take a look (no smoke) and guess what, they were utterly fine. You're very gentle with the bees/frames they said, yeah no sh&t.
I try to educate newbies to be GENTLE when handling frames. Rarely do I find problem bees although I had one training hive a few years ago as an exception. It took two of us to find that small queen, (inconspicuous little thing) and she was despatched pronto. As the words of the Mikado "she won't be missed"
 
Also the fact that as soon as anyone starts selecting for certain traits- inclusing 'AMM' traits, they stop being 'locally adapted'. The'I keep local bees' thing is a delusional farce.
I don’t agree with you. Neither does this study
https://peerj.com/articles/17354/?f...lSjO3JY7a81toncpLw_aem_jR7V_zbY455PUx0qdUB5LQ

Where you have a stable population of the subspecies native to a given area and those bees are living both wild and in managed colonies you will find local adaptation.
The latest genetic analysis being carried out by NUIG Galway shows that there are differences between grouped populations of Amm within counties. Not between counties or provinces - literally at a townland level. This clearly indicates local adaptation. There’s actually a study coming soon that goes further into this but I can’t discuss it until it is published.

Beekeepers have been selecting in these areas but when their aims are healthy bees that produce reasonable crops of honey in sustainable apiaries then they aren’t forcing the bees to do something they aren’t naturally doing themselves anyway.
 
I don’t agree with you. Neither does this study
https://peerj.com/articles/17354/?f...lSjO3JY7a81toncpLw_aem_jR7V_zbY455PUx0qdUB5LQ

Where you have a stable population of the subspecies native to a given area and those bees are living both wild and in managed colonies you will find local adaptation.
The latest genetic analysis being carried out by NUIG Galway shows that there are differences between grouped populations of Amm within counties. Not between counties or provinces - literally at a townland level. This clearly indicates local adaptation. There’s actually a study coming soon that goes further into this but I can’t discuss it until it is published.

Beekeepers have been selecting in these areas but when their aims are healthy bees that produce reasonable crops of honey in sustainable apiaries then they aren’t forcing the bees to do something they aren’t naturally doing themselves anyway.
You seem to have missed the point. If there is a hypothetical free living population adapted to an area, as soon as a beekeeper keeping a colony of those bees does anything to select for their preferred genetics- or even something as simple as knocking down some queen cells- they are applying a selection pressure different to that which the bees would naturally experience. This means that genetically they will begin to differ from the original hypothetical population and are no longer the local strain, even if they are descendents of it. They are no longer the hypothetical naturalised strain, they are an unnatural variant.

Quote as many studies as you like but I'm using basic biological facts and reason so unless you can disprove those, you're deluding yourself.
 
Perhaps - my point was that the buying in of queens may do as much to promote aggressive local bees as not culling aggressive colonies.

It perhaps better explains this than a suggestion the problems is inherent to local bees too.
We can see this play out in real time in Ireland. An area that traditionally had a stable population of Amm. Obviously still differences between colonies and between apiaries but generally easily managed bees.

Then some smart arse decides to import a Buckfast queen or more commonly a beginner is duped into it by watching a YouTube video. All of a sudden colonies start appearing with banding where there was none before. Some of these now hybridised colonies are like nothing you’ve seen before - literally boiling out of the box. Then you have the Buckfast supporters trying to claim it’s the ‘local’ bees causing the problem. You can’t make this stuff up 🤦

In the context of England and Wales you’ve gone so far past this point that no one even remembers what it was like before. To have easily managed native bees that are clearly locally adapted. You moan about the nasty local bees even as you make matters worse by importing more. Then there’s the snide comments about Bibba even though they are absolutely on the money. Stop imports, don’t move your bees around, be happy with reasonable honey crops and colonies that you don’t have to pump full of syrup, celebrate the possibility that all beekeepers whatever their experience level can raise up their own queens without experiencing excessively defensive behaviour. You can still have that. Willie Robson and Chainbridge are a good example to follow.
 
You seem to have missed the point. If there is a hypothetical free living population adapted to an area, as soon as a beekeeper keeping a colony of those bees does anything to select for their preferred genetics- or even something as simple as knocking down some queen cells- they are applying a selection pressure different to that which the bees would naturally experience. This means that genetically they will begin to differ from the original hypothetical population and are no longer the local strain, even if they are descendents of it. They are no longer the hypothetical naturalised strain, they are an unnatural variant.

Quote as many studies as you like but I'm using basic biological facts and reason so unless you can disprove those, you're deluding yourself.
I’m not missing the point - I am telling you that where there is a wild population still in place and there isn’t the constant movement of imported bees the fiddling about of beekeepers will not stop or reduce Apis melliferas ability to adapt to local conditions or disrupt its already adapted state.
If you were correct there wouldn’t be 1000s of colonies living successfully in the wild in Ireland.
 
I’m not missing the point - I am telling you that where there is a wild population still in place and there isn’t the constant movement of imported bees the fiddling about of beekeepers will not stop or reduce Apis melliferas ability to adapt to local conditions or disrupt its already adapted state.
If you were correct there wouldn’t be 1000s of colonies living successfully in the wild in Ireland.
Yes, you are. This is really basic biology in terms of understanding natural and artifical selection. The beekeeper applying a selection pressure means the genetics differ from what would happen naturally. The bees may well continue to do well in the area but this is no longer a naturally occurring locally adapted colony but a strain the beekeeper is selecting for. As these will produces drones, it will influence any other colonies in the area whose queens these mate with. Doesn't matter how well the bees do, they are influenced by the beekeeper(s) therefore the kept and feral populations are no longer the hypothetical naturally occurring locally adapted strain but one which is descended from it and now shaped by artifical selection.
 
Yes, you are. This is really basic biology in terms of understanding natural and artifical selection. The beekeeper applying a selection pressure means the genetics differ from what would happen naturally. The bees may well continue to do well in the area but this is no longer a naturally occurring locally adapted colony but a strain the beekeeper is selecting for. As these will produces drones, it will influence any other colonies in the area whose queens these mate with. Doesn't matter how well the bees do, they are influenced by the beekeeper(s) therefore the kept and feral populations are no longer the hypothetical naturally occurring locally adapted strain but one which is descended from it and now shaped by artifical selection.
As an analogy, hybrid apple trees producing apples produce seeds and trees of which return to their original native species. My reading of studies suggest that no matter what we do the AMM genetics always come out tops......Mongrels.
 
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Yes, you are. This is really basic biology in terms of understanding natural and artifical selection. The beekeeper applying a selection pressure means the genetics differ from what would happen naturally. The bees may well continue to do well in the area but this is no longer a naturally occurring locally adapted colony but a strain the beekeeper is selecting for. As these will produces drones, it will influence any other colonies in the area whose queens these mate with. Doesn't matter how well the bees do, they are influenced by the beekeeper(s) therefore the kept and feral populations are no longer the hypothetical naturally occurring locally adapted strain but one which is descended from it and now shaped by artifical selection.
I'm not sure why labouring the point that beekeeper influence isnt part of the natural selection process supports any valid argument.
Essentially, introducing foreign subspecies which can interbreed with the native subspecies is the opposite to conservation, whereas encouraging and facilitating the native subspecies to prosper is conservation.
 
No. That wasn't my question, I wouldn't question you wanting local bees, that's pretty much what I have myself* at the end of the day.

My question was about non local bees not doing well in your environment which I felt was the implication of your statement that local bees are suited to the local environment.

Edit:* in the sense that they're reared in-house from what's already here with little outside input and none for quite some time although I'm always open to the possibility.
To be fair, I gave up on the imported bees after the first and her subsequent generations. Obviously, I cannot prove that other bees would not thrive, here, but most of our society members have come to the conclusion that local bees seem to be right, here. As to the environmental needs, I suspect that if different butterflies thrive in different areas, such as limestone or acidic, it is likely that other pollinators have similar preferences/ needs. I know that the locally found bees I have had are very prolific and seem comfortable with their forage etc.
 
To be fair, I gave up on the imported bees after the first and her subsequent generations. Obviously, I cannot prove that other bees would not thrive, here, but most of our society members have come to the conclusion that local bees seem to be right, here. As to the environmental needs, I suspect that if different butterflies thrive in different areas, such as limestone or acidic, it is likely that other pollinators have similar preferences/ needs. I know that the locally found bees I have had are very prolific and seem comfortable with their forage etc.
Of course, if climate change is too fast for bees to adapt , I might have to reconsider which bees will find the conditions bearable....
 
Of course, if climate change is too fast for bees to adapt , I might have to reconsider which bees will find the conditions bearable....
The bees will adapt, maybe it'll take us as a species to fail to give them time to reach their natural equilibrium again but they've been around for many more millennia than we have and I guess they'll still be around virtually unchanged by the time we've fizzled out or been superceded.
 
As an analogy, hybrid apple trees producing apples produce seeds and trees of which return to their original native species. My reading of studies suggest that no matter what we do the AMM genetics always come out tops......Mongrels.
You're pointing out they turn to a locally adapted type when the selection influence of man is removed (although potentially different to what would be there had man not been involved at all), which is rather the point I'm making with bees. Whilst man is still selecting, you end up with a strain which differs from what would be there and which influences the local population, irregardless of what happens when man stops selecting.

Your last point also suggests that there is no harm from introducing genetics from elsewhere as, in your words, 'the AMM genetics come out on top', so those seeking to keep AMM type bees have nothing to fear from those keeping other strains thus have no justification for denigrating them.
I'm not sure why labouring the point that beekeeper influence isnt part of the natural selection process supports any valid argument.
Essentially, introducing foreign subspecies which can interbreed with the native subspecies is the opposite to conservation, whereas encouraging and facilitating the native subspecies to prosper is conservation.
1. They're all the same species. Introduction of a new species (such as introducing honey bees to North America...) is usually deleterious for the native population, increasing the gene pool/genetic diversity of a species is generally considered to be advantageous in terms of ability to adapt and survive.

2. I labour the point because there is a repeated false claim about 'keeping local bees' plus there seems to be some shocking mantra that those keeping 'local' bees are somehow more worthy/superior because those bees are supposedly more natural. The problem is that as soon as people are selecting, they're no longer the bees which would naturally be there, man is changing the genetics, so whilst they may be descendents of a hypothetical local population, the argument that they are still part of the locally adapted population s delusional. By all means say you like having descendents of local bees, just don't claim they are still the natural population of the area or that the bees in the area magically stay unchanged when there are artificial selection pressures influencing them.

I would also add that people are free to keeping whatever bees they like. People should not go around denigrating others for preferring a different type and certainly not saying that a certain type is superior because it looks like an idea they have in their head. In humans we call that racism.
 

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