PagdenAS-when to open new and parent hives?

[Etton]

Did my first Pagden AS on Thursday. Left just one QC with Royal jelly from 12 open ones in parent hive (moved over 3 feet from old site to allow flying bees to return to new hive) and moved a frame of brood and one of honey into the new hive...rest undrawn foundation. Left the super on parent hive.
My question is when is best to look into the new hive with old queen...(should I add a super) and when best to look in parent hive with the one open QC?
Thanks.

 

[beeno]

Hi Etton,
As regards the AS part. If the brood frame contained eggs or young larvae, they could be ready to swarm in 3-4 days time if they make a QC from 1 day or 2 day old larvae. So, you have to check. Also, I would personally put a QX under the brood box for a week to stop them from swarming, until you see the queen is nice and fat and laying again.

Go into parent hive in 5-6 days time from the manipulation to remove emergency cells. Mark the frame with the saved QC on, so that you can gently lift it out to have a look to see if she has emerged in a week's time from capping. Despite all the precautions taken by beek you can still end up with a dud. When you see that she has emerged you have to wait say 13 days minimum to check if she is laying.
Well, done you for being in control.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Did my first Pagden AS on Thursday. Left just one QC with Royal jelly from 12 open ones in parent hive (moved over 3 feet from old site to allow flying bees to return to new hive) and moved a frame of brood and one of honey into the new hive...rest undrawn foundation. Left the super on parent hive.
My question is when is best to look into the new hive with old queen...(should I add a super) and when best to look in parent hive with the one open QC?
Thanks.

sounds a bit bass ackwards to me - hive on original site should have just the queen on (at the most) one frame of brood the rest foundation plus allthe supers.
Parent hive with all remaining brood frames, QC reduced to one three feet away.

You should go into both hives fothree or four days later to
A) check they haven't continued to make queen cells in the Q+ side
B)Ensure your original chosen QC in the Q- side is still OK and tear down any emergency QC's made since the A/S

 

[Etton]

Thanks for help. I just dont get why you say leave super on original (parent) hive as this hive now has the queen, one brood, one store and rest undrawn foundation? Puzzled as in the wild they would end up in a tree with nothing.

 

[Erichalfbee]

It's an artificial swarm.
It's how a Pagden is done. There are other ways to AS a colony
In the wild they wouldn't have just the foraging bees either
You leave the super on as this box is now your main production colony.
The parent hive should have enough stores(including the frame you moved with the queen) to feed themselves till enough foragers get going

 

[Etton]

It's an artificial swarm.
It's how a Pagden is done. There are other ways to AS a colony
In the wild they wouldn't have just the foraging bees either
You leave the super on as this box is now your main production colony.
The parent hive should have enough stores(including the frame you moved with the queen) to feed themselves till enough foragers get going

In summary then the parent hive is the one in the original box (-Q) with the one queen cell without supers and the new hive (Q+) gets the supers, even though it has 8 un drawn frames of foundation and will be my main honey source as it will have all the foragers? Thanks for your relies it really helps me get my head around it, sometimes feel I'm getting bee dementia!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes.
It IS difficult to get your head round as a beginner.
Just remember you are removing the queen from the brood.

 

[Finman]

Puzzled as in the wild they would end up in a tree with nothing.

Normal swarm had 3 days food with them.

I do not put supers onto foundation AS.
I force the bees on foundations and they must draw combs quickly because bees do not have place where to store nectar.
But I give a food frame into the AS.

.

 

[Erichalfbee]

What do you do with the supers, Finman?

 

[Finman]

What do you do with the supers, Finman?

When foundations are half drawn, I put supers on foundation hive. It takes about 5 days. When the queen starts to lay, foudation box is soon full of larvae.

I do not follow strickt formula, and I read about Pagden a year ago. I have known the method as Demaree.

 

[ainsie]

Hi Finman,just wondering after the 5 days when uniting supers back to A/S do you need to use newspaper to unite or will they still unite peacefully with direct unite.method seems to make a lot of sense.Ainsie

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What do you do with the supers, Finman?

Hi Finman,just wondering after the 5 days when uniting supers back to A/S do you need to use newspaper to unite or will they still unite peacefully with direct unite.method seems to make a lot of sense.Ainsie

He's not talking about an artificial swarm/pagden but rehousing a caught swarm which is how they do it out there.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ah....
It was The A/S that threw me

 

[Finman]

Hi Finman,just wondering after the 5 days when uniting supers back to A/S do you need to use newspaper to unite or will they still unite peacefully with direct unite.method seems to make a lot of sense.Ainsie

I do not use newspaper in uniting. I just pile the boxes.

But there is no sense to unite bees to the old site, because they return to the new site. They have different smell however. There are quite few bees in supers, because so much have moved to foundation hive.

So I shake bees off from super frames before returning supers to foragers.

 

[ainsie]

Thanks Finman, I understand .Cheers.Ainsie