oxilac acid (disadvantages)

[johnandyrob]

In my opinion one of the problems which has come to my attention is the lack of natural mite drop making beeks believe their is only a small mite population but when treated a huge mite drop
Regards Andrew

What I meant by this their is a lot of advice for new beekeepers to check the mite drop and calculate the population of mites in the colony. I have talked to at least 15 people personally a few by e-mail and have read several post on a number of forums all stating that this has not been an accurate way of determining the mite population because the numbers would suggest that treatment was not necessary after thymol treatment the amount of mites that have fallen has far more than indicated. I hope that clarifies what I meant I never suggested that this was a scientific experiment that I was a scientist or that it was the norm for every beekeeper it is just my opinion Regards Andrew

 

[Hivemaker.]

Thank you Andrew.
Interesting to know if people are using a sticky insert,or sticky substance on the monitoring board,also if the boards are fully enclosed.
Mites falling onto a dry sheet of correx (which seems to be in common use for test slides) and open at the back, could easily be getting blown away by the wind or down draft from the bee's.....ants apparently eat dead mites as well,wonder if wasps also like them.

 

[oliver90owner]

Mignon,

That is good. It just puts into perspective the steep learning curve, and leaves your comments explained - there is usually a rational explanation. I am sure that as your experience increases, you will recognise the signs much earlier, without discounting them as from other maladies.

Whether you remain to be an automatic oxalic treater may be resolved in future years. 70% colonies are not requiring treatment (I think that is what the article said), so there is a high chance that you do not need to treat with oxalic. But if you are in that minority, you would not want to repeat your earlier mistake and not treat.

Oxalic is a tool to be used. If my bees do not need it, I leave it in the toolbox. I don't have to use it and some have not used it for up to 8 years or even more. I have not required it, so far, for the last 5 years. But I do attack the varroa whenever an appropriate opportunity arises with an easy IPM option.

Have you read the DEFRA (or maybe now FERA) booklet on Varroa? A most useful read if you have not seen it.

Regards, RAB

 

[johnandyrob]

I use petroleum jelly on my correx board other people use paper with olive oil painted on but of course this is one of the many variables in all aspects of beekeeping that make it interesting but also make it hard to generalise which in turn make it hard for beginners. Regards Andrew

 

[Finman]

.
Calculate or not, after winter mites should be in the hive under 10 creatures.
Otherwise the mite population will grow too big before autumn, they consentrate into last brood which ought to be wintering bees.

I don.t mind calculate them. Every time mites have been too much.

What is your opinion about "allowed" mite population when you calculate them. They douple themselves every brooding month and 1000 mites in autumn is critical level.

 

[Vergilius]

Prepares for slating...
Here goes. So far in my short (3 years) beeking career I can honestly say that I have not had too much of a problem with the mites. In fact I have not had a problem at all.

My apiguard treatments have produced miniscule mite drops and, because of this I see no reason whatsoever of doing a mid-winter treatment "for the sake of it". I am lucky that I am the only beek in my immediate area and I do know that at any time a serious varroa problem could be brought to my apiary. But, until I find more than 5 mites on my hive floor, I do not see the point of me doing an additional OA treatment.

Ben P

 

[blackbrood]

First year beekeeping and I have automatically given my colonies an OA treatment. I dont believe I have sufficient skills to recognise if I have a varroa issue or not. I did not however give any other varroa treatment during the Summer. I intend this coming year to improve my skills in relation to varroa, monitoring and medicating for them

this I think is the varroa booklet from FERA that RAB referered to , click here

Cheers RAB, I had been through the FERA site and read alsorts but I dont think I saw this, so I will be reading it.

this is a poster from the University of Minnesota about how to sample how many varroa you have. click here

BB

 

[oliver90owner]

I did not however give any other varroa treatment during the Summer.

Blackbrood,

For starters, yes that is the publication I referred to - updated, I would expect. The varroa test does not need to be quite that complicated, I think. A ball park figure is a good start.

Now, the above in bold. I think you missed a huge trick by not treating earlier. By 'summer', am I right that would include a bit into autumn?

I you did not treat with thymol, in one form or another, quite a lot of your 'winter' bees may have been subjected to varroa mother and nymphs feeding (during varroa reproduction cycle) during the pupation stage of development. That is not good news for those bees as they may well be damaged and not over-winter as well as an 'unmolested' bee and they are more likely to already be carriers of varroa-spread viruses - even before the winter starts.

BTW, the booklet gives several ways to reduce varroa, other than using medications. They are cheap but need effort and practise. I hope you consider them all and get prepared (before the season starts) to be able use some, as you will not know when you really might need something other than oxalic acid.

Regards, RAB

 

[Arfermo]

I am a first year beek so can't compare with last year, but I have monitored the varroa fall since the OA treatment and its has been pretty good - over several checks for each hive about 400 - it has now slowed down and the last check was about 5 from one hive and 20 from another. So I feel quite pleased with the result even though I was nervous doing the OA treatment for the first time.
Louise

You cannot be certain that the varroa infestation is almost non-existant which is why I suggest you treat with Oxalic at least once more before the spring buildup begins. There is no rule whatsoever that more than one treatment is either harmful or to be avoided. I evaporate oxalic and considering the mite drops from Apiguard in Aug/Sept, I will be giving mine a second dose any day now - and maybe a third if I consider there is a benefit to the bees (as opposed to my pocket) by so doing. At this time of year with little or no brood about, it is a chance not to missed to knock most of the beggers on the head.

 

[Skyhook]

What I meant by this their is a lot of advice for new beekeepers to check the mite drop and calculate the population of mites in the colony. I have talked to at least 15 people personally a few by e-mail and have read several post on a number of forums all stating that this has not been an accurate way of determining the mite population because the numbers would suggest that treatment was not necessary after thymol treatment the amount of mites that have fallen has far more than indicated. I hope that clarifies what I meant I never suggested that this was a scientific experiment that I was a scientist or that it was the norm for every beekeeper it is just my opinion Regards Andrew

Interesting... in that every time I've monitored the results, put through the beebase calculator, have given numbers that have been reflected by the results of treating. My floor has quite a deep space (about an inch) between the mesh and the tray, and I oil the board quite heavily with cooking oil so neither mites nor ants could cross it easily. I would suggest that where people have had false negatives, mites have been lost before counting.

 

[johnandyrob]

Interesting... in that every time I've monitored the results, put through the beebase calculator, have given numbers that have been reflected by the results of treating. My floor has quite a deep space (about an inch) between the mesh and the tray, and I oil the board quite heavily with cooking oil so neither mites nor ants could cross it easily. I would suggest that where people have had false negatives, mites have been lost before counting.

Thats what Hivemaker was saying also. It never occurred to me that people wouldnt use some thing to stop mights blowing or being removed. I was finding it hard to locate sticky inserts so just use petroleum jelly. Regards Andrew

 

[BBG]

Mignon,

Whether you remain to be an automatic oxalic treater may be resolved in future years. 70% colonies are not requiring treatment (I think that is what the article said), so there is a high chance that you do not need to treat with oxalic. But if you are in that minority, you would not want to repeat your earlier mistake and not treat.

Oxalic is a tool to be used.

Have you read the DEFRA (or maybe now FERA) booklet on Varroa? A most useful read if you have not seen it.

Regards, RAB

Yes and it says oxalic acid is not authorised in any EU country, which is at odds with actual practice - confusing to new arrivals wishing to adhere to regulations.

Any thoughts??

"Contact the Defra Veterinary Medicines Directorate for up-to-date information on which varroacides are authorised for use in the UK.

Ref Oxalic Acid:
FERA Managing Varroa:

Page 25

NOT authorised in UK

Note 2 Not authorised in any EU Member State, but tolerated in many countries."

 

[RoofTops]

The document is out of date but the reason OA is not authorised is well known and simply down to the cost of getting it approved which no company can afford to spend on a product which is readily available from many sources.

I can see why Finman is beginning to lose the will to live at this endless repetition of the same old arguments.

For any beginners out there, here is what to do about varroa - this is not my pet theory but what is widely practised in Europe and advised in the UK by bee inspectors:

1. Treat with a thymol based compound in August.
2. Trickle OA syrup late December.

Actual timings can vary a bit but if you do the above you should be able to keep on top of varroa and you will not harm your bees. Tens of thousands of colonies are treated with this regime.

After keeping bees for a few season by all means experiment with other systems because by then you will be better able to recognise what works and what doesn't.

 

[oliver90owner]

When I started oxalic treatment the Local bee inspector's response to questions about it was not favourable, to say the least. About 8 or 9 years on, they advocate a winter trickle treatment.

Authorised may just mean "approved for use after adquate testing of product is provided".

No one is going to make any money from a chemical which can be purchased from the local pharmacist or beekeeping suppliers, so no tests (applications/tests/approvals all cost money!) are put forward for approval. Simple as that. Same with the other organic acids.

Regards, RAB

(so as rooftops, really, except I don't advocate the automatic winter treatment regime, which is adopted by many beefarmers and inferred to all other beekeepers, as absolutely necessary, by some).

 

[Rosti]

I agree with Roof Tops (post #33), with an explanation of why.

To coin a phrase from a celebrity beek "I am a bad beekeeper", I am irresponsible enough to allow my career and the travel that entails to have a higher priority than my keeping, I might miss an inspection, fail to perform a drone brood cull etc; but even I can make sure I schedule a Winter OA treatment, an Autumn Thymol treatment and the use of an OMF.

This thread is feeling a bit like the argument against MMR vaccine (unsubstantiated) - surely 'minimising intervention' is a good principle but does not constutute 'justifying evidence in it's own right', where is the evidence for not treating with OA as being a better option?

 

[Finman]

.
If we want a good and deep from soul debate, let's talk about how to make sugar syrup.

Let's calculate right and wrong way the w/v %, is it good to bees. Is the cane sugar better than something else. How to invert plaaa plaa.

If it is not enough, lets talk about pure water. Is the pure water better thhan dirty water.

We continue that nosy debatting year after year and no one become wiser.

I say that it is best to give to swarm 20% sugar syrup. I know that. I have researched it.

 

[BBG]

Does anyone know whether there is damage to the bees' eyes following treatment with oxalic acid. Are there any studies to show yes/no.

Would be very interested to read any, thanks.

 

[Finman]

Does anyone know whether there is damage to the bees' eyes following treatment with oxalic acid. Are there any studies to show yes/no.

Would be very interested to read any, thanks.

damages to eyes. I have seen no researches about that. No yes or no.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Does anyone know whether there is damage to the bees' eyes following treatment with oxalic acid. Are there any studies to show yes/no.

Would be very interested to read any, thanks.

Not seen any research that mentions damage to eye's,just to internal organs,causing permanent lesions to malphigian tubules ect,hence the recomendation to treat only once.

 

[Finman]

Not seen any research that mentions damage to eye's,just to internal organs,causing permanent lesions to malphigian tubules ect,hence the recomendation to treat only once.

yes but, it does not make permanent damages to bees. Researchers in Finland knows that.

Dead rate of bees rise some after hanling, but it does not hurt spring buildup.
As far as I know, no damages have been reported on queens.

.