Oxalic Results

[Max]

Checked the hives 24 hours after treating and the mite drop was horrendous, despite treating with Apiguard in August which was very successful after the 4 week treatment period and using hive clean throughout the active season which also worked well.

I guess its due to the mild Autumn and all my hives have young queens who I guess kept on laying, which enabled the varroa to keep reproducing.

My worst hive had a drop of over 500 varroa, despite hardly any varroa after the 4 week Apiguard treatment back in early September. Picture attached showing a smallish area, which was a true reflection of the whole floor.

 

[MuswellMetro]

what was the natural daily drop prior to treatment

NBU web site is saying Mite load in December is X400 the natural daily drop

 

[Gardenbees]

what was the natural daily drop prior to treatment

NBU web site is saying Mite load in December is X400 the natural daily drop

Interesting. Both my hives dropped around one mite a day last week (i.e. 3 mites over 3 days). Treated yesterday and this morning there were no mites at all on one board, and 42 on the other. But I'm suspicious: I'm sure there's quite a bit of sealed brood in there, probably with more mites.

The bees have been bringing in pollen and nectar for weeks now apparently without halt, and virtually every seam in each hive was crammed with bees, more so than in October when I last looked. And I make a point of looking with a torch both from under the OMF and from above, so it's not just that they're all congregating at the top of the hive. Both queens must have been laying up until recently. It's basically how I would like a hive to be at round about the end of October.

I'm going to check the natural mite drop again in a month's time just out of interest, to see whether the "no drop" hive is still clear.

 

[mbc]

Checked the hives 24 hours after treating and the mite drop was horrendous, despite treating with Apiguard in August which was very successful after the 4 week treatment period and using hive clean throughout the active season which also worked well.

I guess its due to the mild Autumn and all my hives have young queens who I guess kept on laying, which enabled the varroa to keep reproducing.

My worst hive had a drop of over 500 varroa, despite hardly any varroa after the 4 week Apiguard treatment back in early September. Picture attached showing a smallish area, which was a true reflection of the whole floor.

Good shot Sir !
Looks like you successfully wiped out loads of varoa, hopefully giving your bees a bit of breathing space this coming Spring.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

As posted elsewhere, mine were a lot higher than expected. Check a few weeks back showed 0-5 in a week, post Oxalic a drop of 20-120 in two days. Compared to last winter when I had very little drop even post oxalic.

 

[Arfermo]

As posted elsewhere, mine were a lot higher than expected. Check a few weeks back showed 0-5 in a week, post Oxalic a drop of 20-120 in two days. Compared to last winter when I had very little drop even post oxalic.

That is precisely why those who don't treat because of a small drop are barking not to do it. QED. I've been fairly clear this year but 2 years ago the count after first treatment went so far over 3000 of the bxxxxs that I gave up counting. Another lesson is to treat twice if one does the first dose early enough. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

I have said previously I think Varroa levels are higher atm in my area due to late brooding / warm winter. We need a good knock down now...and have to adapt to the changing weather. I think the high winds are blowing any Varroa off boards atm, mind you many of the boards are blowing out from under the hives anyway! I will follow up in the spring with as many shook swarms as possible for Varroa control (and other reasons).

 

[Arfermo]

I have said previously I think Varroa levels are higher atm in my area due to late brooding / warm winter. We need a good knock down now...and have to adapt to the changing weather. I think the high winds are blowing any Varroa off boards atm, mind you many of the boards are blowing out from under the hives anyway! I will follow up in the spring with as many shook swarms as possible for Varroa control (and other reasons).

And do oxalic straight after too I hope?

 

[oliver90owner]

are barking not to do it

Thank you, Arfermo. Just so happens that I am confident that it is not needed, and that I can keep the mites under control without being mad. Your post is a little derogatory to all those that do not treat with oxalic for very good reason, so we can discount your 'sage' advice on the matter, I presume?

To allow your mite drop to exceed 3000 seems to me to be a case of poor hive management from such a sage as yourself. Obviously better safe for those that may be sorry.

It may be worth pointing out that a reasonablly small number of mites is not usually a great problem at this time of the year; the action (oxalic treatment) far too late if the mite drop is excessive, as the pathogens carried by the mites will already have been spread far and wide among the wintering bees. Much better to control the mites effectively before the wintering bees are infected, so oxalic should not really be a saviour of colonies, just another treatment for those that are worried they may be compromised with mites next season.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

And do oxalic straight after too I hope?

It is an option after 24hrs when the bait comb with brood is removed if needed.

 

[Luminos]

Quote:
That is precisely why those who don't treat because of a small drop are barking not to do it.
Or even those misled by "no drop", like me.

 

[oliver90owner]

Luminos,

Hard lesson to learn, but you will now know not to rely only on one particular check only. Same with controlling the mites - I don't rely on one 'winter' oxalic acid treatment to get them through the summer months, to the apiguard treatment after harvest.

My bees don't need any oxalic to get them through to the spring. They will get appropriate IPM controls throughout the summer - and not those expensive 'hive sanitisers', either.

I once bought two hived colonies with rampant varroa (at the right price, mind), just to free-up the apiary site. Lost at least one of them, but at least didn't have to worry about apistan strips being left in those hives all winter. I regularly check my colonies (not to see if they have varroa - I know they will) to estimate how heavy the infestation is.

You could try this next year. Collect a can-full (of nurse bees, mainly), roll them around with icing sugar and allow to stand, for a few minutes, over an OMF (or similar) grid, then allow them to run back into the hive over a white sheet. Compare the number of mites, left behind, with your other routine checks.

You may be surprised. Multiply up, to estimate the phoretic mites in the hive and then multiply that number by six to include all the rest (in the brood cells). By no means accurate, but may give you an indication of what you are looking for...

You might want to compare that figure with 'sugar dusting the hive frames' or whatever other checks you do (egs - natural mite drop checks, checking drone brood, even checking frames of bees for observable mites). It all helps to make you aware that any one check is not necessarily indicative of the true situation.

RAB

 

[HelenX]

My bees don't need any oxalic to get them through to the spring. They will get appropriate IPM controls throughout the summer - and not those expensive 'hive sanitisers', either.

Rab,

I am one of the new beekeepers who has been 'frightened' by the local 'experts' into treating with Oxalic in my first winter, but I want to aim for good enough IPM this next year to be confident it is not needed.

For the benefit of other new people as well as me, can you give us am approximate list of what we should be thinking about doing, and at what stage of the year?

Yes - I know you will say it depends on the year, the weather, the bees, and the varroa - but just an idea - please?

Thank you in advance,
Helen

 

[oliver90owner]

Helen,

I don't have a set plan. I see the infestation loading and decide on the best course of action for me/them at the time. Most times it is obvious and mostly nothing too precipitate/urgent. There is often a month to decide what to do, if it is not clear at the time, so no real worry.

IPM as per some of the DEFRA publication is a good grounding. I don't want to be making my new nucs from infested colonies, so am choosy where I get my bees from, or would give them a clean-up if deemed necessary. I might even oxalic some in the season if I thought it the best route. A good sugar rolling seems to get rid of most of the mites - but only good for broodless units. I prefer not to keep on drone culling, as a regular attack on the mite, but would ruthlessly remove all drone brood if it were badly affected. Culling the first capped brood is a good weapon after attacking the phoretic mites in a broodless colony
.
I have removed capped brood to other colonies and then hammered the remaining mites, followed by later strengthening with flying bees, or treated bees; basically a shook swarm for the one colony and 'theft' of flying bees from the other colonies later - if I have moved one or other colony away to another site, it may affect my next attack on the mite.

I am just careful when swapping bees/brood around, as regards health of the bees. I have always moved bees to and from the OSR/beans/OSR (if available)/back to home apiary and have not generally suffered with excessive mite loadings in the 'foraging' season. Probably not as low as Finman and other commercial operators would want, but low enough for me. I did have problems early on (particularly saw the two colonies I bought, really struggling with the mite infestation) but have learned how to keep the mite down to safe levels - it used to be relatively easy, before mite resistance to pyrethroids.

If I had expanded further, I would have needed to be more regulated in my approach to the problem and treat all colonies more uniformly, but I am not; I intend to reduce my colony count, so with fewer colonies I can relatively easily keep ahead of the varroa - one way or another.

Look at it this simple way - A/S them all, and treat both halves when broodless, then re-unite. You lose some crop but not a lot. Phoretic mites are an easy target and you don't have to get rid of them all, just as many as you can, enough to get them through to the post-harvest thymol.

Post-harvest is the most important period for me. Clean bees brooding clean winter bees is my real target later in the year; healthy bees into winter as strong colonies is a priority to make wintering as easy as possible. There has to be a very good reason, now, to take a weakish colony into winter. I learned that from my second year, when my expansion plans went backwards!

I always like to have a contingency plan, should things go wrong. I don't use apistan strips as a regular treatment but would, should the weather turn too cold for thymol. Maybe not ideal, but good enough to get the bees through the winter or to an oxalic treatment - yes, oxalic would be used if felt necessary for the health of the colony!

So the underlying plan is to have as many options as possible available, and pick any (or every one) as the opportunity arises. Not using all stocks for honey production is another option - again, I have not been too worried how much honey I have got in the past - as long as it has been sufficient!

The most important thing is to recognise when treatment is likely necessary - no 'head in the sand' and just await the time for apiguard. Using any IPM opportunity which becomes available, at little cost to the bees/harvest will help them on their way.

Recognising the need for treatment is likely down to experience of knowing they are there and will be multiplying - doubling every month - and requiring careful checking to be confident they are not going to get out of control; suddenly finding a mite drop, when treated, of several thousand is definitely to be avoided! It will happen at some time, for all of us, that the mites are excessive. Part of my plan is that it will not be most of my colonies at the same time!

Hope this helps you think about all the alternatives available. Oxalic acid in the winter can reduce the need for a lot of these IPM alternatives, but will never cover all the possibilities; nor should it be assumed that the mite infestation is low, because sooner or later, you will get caught out. Even the great Finman admits to it!

Most get caught out for one of two reasons. First, they don't know what they are looking for, or secondly, they assume they are safe. Once the first is overcome, there is little excuse for getting caught out on a regular basis for the second reason. For those with only one or two colonies, extra care is needed if you don't want to risk having to start again.

Regards, RAB

 

[Finman]

.
RAB, you make simple things bigger than human life.

Trickling has been used over the world 12 years and you have competence to judge it.

When you make nucs, there are several simple ways to kill mites from the nuc.
.only couple of frames.


.

 

[drstitson]

Finman

I appreciate where you are coming from (in this and other threads).

The problem in UK is that we are all having to find our own way.

Suppliers sell (apparently) superceded imported OA formulations without proper instructions.

FERA acknowledge that OA may be used but do not actively promote it.

sorry ... about to break a forum NYR .....

BBKA advice must be taken with large pinch of salt (not sure of correct % or if that is w/w or w/v or if one should take it in tap water, distilled water, deionised water, alcohol or syrup - 2:1, 1:1, 1:2?) eg matchstick issue and incorrect syrup recipes in last couple of months alone.

We may look like we are re-inventing the wheel. we are in some respects. but as an almost entirely small scale hobby beekeeping nation we don't have the benefit of eminent professors of apiculture or european consortia to guide us - or even (outside this forum) pointers as to where to find correct information.

I'm sure you've seen the FERA Managing Varroa booklet and are aware that in 44 pages the only actual practical "guidance" given re use of organic acids is as follows:

"Beekeepers contemplating their use need to be aware that
personal protective clothing (such as gloves, face and eye protection, and respiratory protection) may be necessary. Beekeepers should also be aware that they may be liable to be prosecuted should the routine sampling and testing of products for residues find positive results."

 

[oliver90owner]

Finman,

Your post. You are so right, in so far as things are simple. The rest is, IMO, trash.

I find I need to do relatively little to maintain low levels of varroa. The simple difference is that I do it to those colonies that need it and when they need it. Very simple, that, do you not think?

I might ask where I have made any judgement on oxalic acid? Please yourself, Finman, and I will please myself as to which strategies I use, and when they may be applied.

I choose not to dribble with oxalic acid unless they need it. Understand? My choice.

I do not tell you not to dribble with oxalic acid; you may dribble as much as you like. I have sublimed, trickled and likely sprayed acid at one time or another. I now choose to avoid it unless appropriate and needed.

The emphasis is maybe on the word 'needed'. Only lost one colony over winter in the last five years (and not varroa related), so oxalic has little to do with winter survival. Only not having to keep awake for the rest of the year it seems to me, is the main driving advantage - and of course, your crop. But there, some beefarmers on the forum seem to get good results without recourse to your pet treatment, so it cannot really be as important as you try to make it out.

Oh, and the nucs comment. I have no trouble with my nucs, thank you very much. As you say, there are several ways and they are all easy. Even without oxalic acid, which I might consider applying, were I to feel so inclined.

Beekeeping is not really difficult at all - you just need to keep your eyes open and make simple decisions.

RAB

 

[drstitson]

"Oh, and the nucs comment. I have no trouble with my nucs, thank you very much"

Rab - i read Finman's comment as simply emphasising for the audience in general, rather than yourself, the point that nucs (splits) represented a great opportunity to treat phoretic phase mites whilst broodless (like newly housed swarms).

 

[MandF]

are barking not to do it

Thank you, Arfermo. Just so happens that I am confident that it is not needed, and that I can keep the mites under control without being mad. Your post is a little derogatory to all those that do not treat with oxalic for very good reason, so we can discount your 'sage' advice on the matter, I presume?

He didnt specifically mention oxalic, and I believe his advice is good advice - if you are deciding on whether to treat for varroa (oxalic or otherwise, winter or otherwise) do not rely on just counting the number of varroa on the floor.

Out of interest, how many people on here have treated with oxalic, and how many have had a drop of less than, say, 20?

 

[Finman]

Finman

I appreciate where you are coming from (in this and other threads).

The problem in UK is that we are all having to find our own way.
"

something wrong in this forum.

- there are some loud guys here who says "we are UK. We shoose the way".

i wonder, who has so big ego that he may represent 70 million people, just saying we?

- when you shoose your way, you do not make any researches. You just listen to some pal, who says that 15 years old method is best. If some one use something else, he will find himself in prison.

- the law in my contry does not demand that bees must be kept in stupid way.

- yeas, I remember that honey yeild is not important in beekeeping. At least I try.

- your think that your weather, tap water, your bees. your hives, everyting is so special. Look at the European map. Your rain, warm spells, cold spells, .....even your own beekeeping books does not work in "we UK"

- during two months here have been so much writings that it would bea 500 pages book about trickling.

Even international varroa group has not so much pages. 5 pages is enough to tell whatis the idea.
No, they made research. For example our researches has counted tens of thousands of mites to reviele out to you, what is practical and what is good. You just whip your mouth in a spirit of "we".

.