Oxalic acid

[Newbeeneil]

Do you think one can get cascade prescription if Apibioxal glues up vaping equipment?
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Interesting thought

 

[Mint Bee]

Do you think one can get cascade prescription if Apibioxal glues up vaping equipment?
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This is OA powder without anything added, https://www.produits-veto.com/en/pr...les-melliferes-75-g-andermatt/?v=0b3b97fa6688 that is licensed in some of the EU (not Ireland or UK). Its expensive and using the cascade would make this even more costly. An individual prescription plus a special import license is required, and then only a years supply maximum is allowed for the prescription. Vet is also responsible for the administration of the medicine, although they can delegate this. Interestingly though, The above product was approved through a Bibliographic (well established use) route using -art 13 (a) Dir 2001/82/EC, so thoughts on how to get @pargyle enterprises into veterinary medicine in the other OA thread look promising

 

[Wilco]

Do you think one can get cascade prescription if Apibioxal glues up vaping equipment?
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Yes but it's a little bit of a grey area. The argument for not using apibioxal would have to hinge around supply issues.

I have in the past argued the following way for some medications- for example, if wanting to prescribe paracetamol for a dog when there is a licenced version which is combined with codeine (basically dog co-codamol), I argued that I did not want to use/prescribe the codeine component in the case at that time thus there was an argument to prescribe on the cascade as there wasn't a suitable licenced paracetamol-only formulation.

However, I'm not sure the above could be applied to apibioxal although if so the argument is going to have to tie in to the formulation... As mentioned in posts above, there is a licenced version in another country this should be prescribed - if available - before reaching for the unlicensed plain OA crystals.

Realistically our best bet is the group approach to get a generic version approved through VMD (Would make a great news story!). I'd suggest that if we consider this, any markup is slight enough to merely cover handing costs plus a couple of pence- those involved in the effort either then getting it at cost price with others paying slightly more or all paying with a slight markup so, in time, those involved get paid back.

I'll email VMD to see if I'd be able to apply the cascade here anyway, if so I'll then check whether I can prescribe without coming and checking everyone's bees as RCVS regs on prescribing also factor in here. If it's doable we may have a workaround...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but what we are all forgetting here, regardless of VMD regulations we are also trying to find a derogation to store a controlled poison on our respective premises so would still need to satisfy the requirements of the poisons act.

 

[Mint Bee]

The users of currently licensed QA products are not required to registered as individuals with poison act credentials. If it was licensed through the VMD for a specific function, the act is superseded by medical regulations as far as I can ascertain.

WRT the cascade system, the way I read this is that it's an individual prescription for which the vet could bring in upto a year's supply to named Indvidual. Repeat process the following year, subject to valid special import licensee and wholesale dealer's license to import and sort out paperwork. Can't see this grey importation route being allowed to continue for too long.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Dihydrate means they are crystals

Sure about that?
di·hy·drate (ˈ)dī-ˈhī-ˌdrāt. : a hydrate containing two molecules of water.

https://www.merriam-webster.com › ...

 

[robmort]

Sure about that?
di·hy·drate (ˈ)dī-ˈhī-ˌdrāt. : a hydrate containing two molecules of water.
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https://www.merriam-webster.com › ...

Yes, the 2 water molecules are needed to form the crystals, no crystals without them

 

[Sutty]

Yes, the 2 water molecules are needed to form the crystals, no crystals without them

Apart from anhydrous oxalic acid

 

[ericbeaumont]

satisfy the requirements of the poisons act

How difficult would it be to remove OA from the list?

 

[JamezF]

Sure about that?
di·hy·drate (ˈ)dī-ˈhī-ˌdrāt. : a hydrate containing two molecules of water.
View attachment 41359
https://www.merriam-webster.com › ...

As far as I recall a hydrate is solid by definition. The water molecules form part of the crystal rather than the OA (or whatever) being in solution.

James

 

[Sutty]

As far as I recall a hydrate is solid by definition. The water molecules form part of the crystal rather than the OA (or whatever) being in solution.

James

Correct. The water molecules are part of the crystal structure, and the anhydrous version has a different structure.

 

[robmort]

Apart from anhydrous oxalic acid

Anhydrous oxalic acid doesn't form crystals

 

[hairywill]

I heard of someone that got a 5KG tub from constructionchemicalslimited. When they opened the box, the base of the plastic tub had cracked and there was several hundred grams of loose OA in the bottom of the box that ended up spilled on the kitchen floor. Immediate retreat to put on suitable mask to clean up the mess. Apparently the plastic tub was quite thin and brittle.

Be careful with poisons, maybe the government should regulate it

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Immediate retreat to put on suitable mask to clean up the mess.

 

[Sutty]

I heard of someone that got a 5KG tub from constructionchemicalslimited. When they opened the box, the base of the plastic tub had cracked and there was several hundred grams of loose OA in the bottom of the box that ended up spilled on the kitchen floor. Immediate retreat to put on suitable mask to clean up the mess. Apparently the plastic tub was quite thin and brittle.

Be careful with poisons, maybe the government should regulate it

That happened to me on a recent purchase. The box was twice the height of the tub & no padding so probably turned the right way up from upside down, dropping the tub onto a hard surface.
Just poured & swept the rest into another container - it's not dusty!
On the bright side when I told the company they sent me a replacement!

 

[hairywill]

I am very interested in your responses, maybe I am overly cautious. A few years ago whilst packing away some equipment I brushed off a thin layer of OA with my hand. The wind caught it, blew it back into my face and I copped a lungful, sharp pains in my lungs, really not very nice. Since then I've been careful not to let the crystals become airborne without PPE.

 

[Sutty]

I am very interested in your responses, maybe I am overly cautious. A few years ago whilst packing away some equipment I brushed off a thin layer of OA with my hand. The wind caught it, blew it back into my face and I copped a lungful, sharp pains in my lungs, really not very nice. Since then I've been careful not to let the crystals become airborne without PPE.

Yes that sounds unpleasant and could be hazardous potentially. But tipping from one container to another doesn't seem to get it airborne. I wouldn't suggest vigorously brushing though.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

maybe closing the kitchen windows and turning off the fans?
you should try mopping up a couple of kilos of spilt cocaine

 

[Swarm]

....With a twenty pound note and your snitch.

 

[Erichalfbee]

twenty pound note

Fifty… please